I am a lunatic, quick to anger (and quick to forgive I might add) and always ready for a fight. Perhaps our readers may have picked up on these traits, I dunno.
But I have to laugh when I find myself to be the calmest guy in the metaphorical room, ’cause something must be screwy. Screwy indeed.
In this case, it seems that two fine Catholic gents have gone a little kooky. I can’t figure out which of these things is more over the top, Michale Voris’ commentary on Amazing Grace or Mark Shea’s reaction to it?
First Voris.
I like Voris, you guys should know that by now. But I think that his criticisms unnecessarily forces the worst possible interpretation of the lyrics. For instance, one of my favorite lines of the song is “how precious did that grace appear the hour I first believed.” I have always interpreted that to be an exclamation of gratitude for a precious gift. As how precious a glass of water would appear to a man in a desert. His interpretation of the word “appear” seems strange and unnatural to me. Anyway, we can agree to disagree.
But for reasons I cannot really fathom, Mark Shea went ballistic on this video in a piece humbly entitled “Michael Voris Offers Unintelligent and Destructive Cultural Commentary.” Wrong maybe, but destructive? Mark drops a whole dumptruck of hyperbolic polemic on Voris. Some juicy excerpts.
Voris’ sole message is “I am the measure of Real Catholicism and those who agree with me have the right to call themselves Catholic, while those who disagree are liars and lukewarm fake Catholics”.
and
Dave Armstrong (who is, of course, not a real Catholic since he questions the infallible Voris) looks at Voris’ tissue of prideful, biblically illiterate and theologically stupid assertions
and then Mark unloads on those who like Voris (like me, I suppose)
Why does this matter? Because I am constantly hearing from fans of Voris who think that his method of perpetually sneering at brother and sister Catholics, tearing down anything that he deems to be not “really” Catholic, and endlessly complaining about and sneering at others for their alleged “impurity” (such as singing “Amazing Grace”) constitutes being a “bold voice of reform”.
and
I don’t understand what people see in this guy. You can get all the good things he has to say–without the sectarian self-righteousness and cloddish theological blunders and over-simplifications–from lots of other sources. So it would appear that precisely what people want is his distinctive contribution: sectarian self-righteousness and cloddish over-simplifications.
Here is the thing, I actually agree with Mark’s defense of Amazing Grace. But for the life of me I cannot understand why it bothers him that people like Voris.
Did Voris miss the mark on this one? I think so. Guess what, I miss the mark on some of my commentary occasionally and I think that Mark would admit that he blows it sometimes too. It is the nature of the beast. And I will freely admit that when Mark writes something I disagree with I like to give him a hard time, but I still like the guy and I hope that Mark still likes me. But I don’t get why Voris drives so many people crazy, I mean neck-vein-bulging crazy.
Even if we disagree and even if we completely blow it sometimes, can’t we all just get along?
(Actually, I am kidding. I really like the fighting. I just want to seem like I am reasonable. But then again, I am really just a protestant 😉
July 26, 2011 at 4:23 pm
I just realized it is a sin for me to be reading through all of these comments and watching this argument unfold. It's terrible. I am sorry that I did, and I am sorry that we Catholics tend to do this so often on these blogs. Really. Think about it. There is another way.
July 26, 2011 at 4:58 pm
"I just realized it is a sin for me to be reading through all of these comments"
When I was a young solider (back in the Dark Ages)my landlord was a Jew – a German Jew. He liked to point out that prior to Crystal Night that the Nazis had effectively rendered the Jews mute by making constant, daily anonymous attacks on them in the local papers (of which there were very many compared to today). Christians who attempted to defend the Jews were also criticized by other Christians, who adopted a morally superior tone, for daring to speak out. Silence was preferable to charity.
Kind of like what you are doing.
God bless
Richard W Comerford
July 26, 2011 at 5:50 pm
I guess I'm a little late to this party, but I have to say, I have tried and tried and tried and tried to like Mark Shea, to no avail. I dislike pointing out other's flaws in comboxes, especially since I have had so many of mine pointed out to me in a similar manner, but those occasions were always occasions of grace for me in which I learned something about my own character that needed to be remedied. While I always, always find something of value in everything he writes, I find Mr. Shea's blacklisting of all those who don't agree with his seamless garment theory of social justice as "not really Catholic" totally offensive. The seamless garment theory is a new development in Catholic social teaching. I happen to agree with much of it and disagree with parts, but to paint all of those who disagree as "fake Catholics" and other such lamentable terms that Mr. Shea has used is not in any way charitable or just. I also wish he would stop calling people names. This isn't the third grade. He has so much to offer, and I can't understand why he keeps sullying the waters with name-calling. It's frustrating.
Anyway, that's my two cents on it. I didn't read all of the comments cause I started to get a combox headache, so if this tendency has already been covered, I'm sorry for being repetitive. Also, I have no idea who Voris is, but I do think that this is a bad interpretation of one of the most beautiful songs on faith ever.
July 26, 2011 at 10:25 pm
@ Richard Comerford:
I was the annon @11:23 above.
I am not offended that you just compared me to Nazis. I could be. In fact, I could pretty much go apoplectic on you for choosing such an extreme, conflagatory and divisive analogy to make your point. But I will not. (certainly, I am not stifling anyone, or trying to.)
Perhaps you did not understand the meaning of my post. So I will try one more time, then leave.
First:
The discussion is not completely without merit. (Keep referring back here, when you feel like I am against the topic in all ways.)
Moving on:
It was a sin for me to read through your arguing, because I found it entertaining. Something tells me many people do. It's like a game. We like to see who gets in the next best shot. But I am not confused about who's position is correct and being persuaded one way or another. In other words, I did not read through this to be informed. I have my own position and see the merits and flaws on both sides.
I believe that you are seeking the truth as is everyone else here. You believe you are right as does everyone else here.
My heart, though, tells me that Jesus is not well pleased that I chose to waste my time reading through a fight. I learned nothing. It added nothing to my soul. I gained nothing. Did you gain something? Did anyone? (Maybe you think you gained something for trying to defend someone.)
Something else tells me that Jesus is not pleased to see this kind of divisive conversation taking place (and in the MANNER it has been taking place).
I found both, your comments and the comments of others, whizzing past each other and being misunderstood like ships passing in the night. Neither side trying to understand the other. Neither side attempting in any way to make peace. So my participation in it was wrong. Now that I am here, I am probably STILL wrong for posting, but I have this little, tiny, hope that someone may read this and think twice about doing the same thing.
Fr. Bill (I think it was) above, was correct and made the most sense of anyone posting.
Bottom line:
Voris and Shea are BOTH the GOOD GUYS. They BOTH make and have made mistakes. EVERYONE knows that. THEY know that. What more is there to say about it? (I am sure we can find endless stuff to say)
But what this is not: A fight against the Nazis. OK? You are not Captain America and you are not defending to the last man the unrighteously attacked reputation of an innocent Jew who is on the point of murder. Would Shea think you are?
You will tear apart my post, no doubt. Perhaps you will still fail to get my point. That's fine. It is surely not without flaw. So have at it, my friend. I could wait for it, check back, and counter punch. (Oh and I have a good punch, too.) But what does that merit for me? I have been there and done that. My fists are permanently unclenched now.
Some here may find solace in your clear consciences that tell you this internecine bloodshed is necessary, just, helpful, etc.
For me – it's a sin. I will make attempts to spend that time in prayer instead. Perhaps I will not be alone? How many people here have participated in a blood battle with their good Catholic neighbor? How many believe in their hearts that it was necessary? Really necessary?
End.
(If I have misunderstood you or anyone here, or if my comments have been harsh, I sincerely ask your forgiveness as my intentions are merely to clarify and to encourage a more peaceful approach.)
God bless YOU, Mr. Comerford! AND ALL HERE! And may He grant us Peace, humility, wisdom and Mercy!
Amen!
July 27, 2011 at 12:50 am
"I am not offended that you just compared me to Nazis."
You should be. If I had compared you to a Nazi. But I did not. Rather I compared you to the Christians who criticized other Christians for daring to defend Jews. You know. For causing all that unseemly public controversy.
"You are not Captain America and you are not defending to the last man the unrighteously attacked reputation of an innocent Jew who is on the point of murder. Would Shea think you are?"
As an old solider you know, or should know, that what happened at abu ghraib and GTMO were notisolated incidents. The U.S Army has tortured thousands of Muslims. And in so doing gave the enemy his best recruiting tool, which has resulted in the unnecessary deaths of American soldiers; and in turn probably hand victory in Iraq and Afghan to the enemy. Mr. Shea to my knowledge was the only notable Catholic to publicly and heroically defend the Church's teachings on this matter.
"Some here may find solace in your clear consciences that tell you this internecine bloodshed is necessary, just, helpful, etc."
Internecine? More than a few of Mr. Shea's anonymous critics have openly and clearly rejected the Church teachings regarding torture and just war; and they have refused to recognize the teaching authority of JP II.
JP II taught that it was the torturer and not the victim who in the long run suffered the most from torture. Both the USA and Israel now have thousands of young veterans who are trying to cope with having been either directly or indire4ctly involved with torture. As an old soldier you know or should know that these youngsters, at least in the American system are getting no help.
Look if you want to stand in a circle, holding hands, singing Kum bay ya then good for you. But for me there are too many dead America soldiers, broken veterans, tortured Muslims and endangered souls for that. And if you think that the Kum bay ya approach is the Christian one then read again the Gospels.
God bless
Richard W Comerford
July 27, 2011 at 7:06 am
Someone who doesn't like the 'Vortex' doesn't have to watch it. Yes, he probably makes too much of 'wretch', but it can't be denied that Amazing Grace' was written as an expression of the heretical protestant doctrine of 'sola gratia'. So, while it's not, strictly speaking, anti-catholic, it does contradict catholic teaching, and is definitely not appropriate music for the mass. Of course, it might be less inappropriate than some modern hymns written by catholics, but that's a separate issue. 'It could be worse' isn't much of an argument.
I generally like Voris. I don't expect lengthy theological treatises from his short videos, but I do think that he's a good communicator in the video medium. On the other hand, if he's driving you away from the Church (which is strange, given that Voris doesn't = 'the Church') then you might just want to stop watching him and find something more suited to your spiritual needs.
Ivan K.
July 27, 2011 at 10:16 pm
Can we PLEASE get back to the original subject of this thread?
Voris criticizes the phrase "a wretch like me" as being too "Protestant" and not reflecting Catholic theology. I would like to ask Mr. Voris one question:
Have you ever known anybody who is so grateful for a radical transformation from evil to good that such a person regards his former life as absolutely pathetic and, if I may, wretched?
Moreover, Mr. Voris, have you ever read St. Paul's self-description as "the worst of all sinners"? Was St. Paul a Protestant?
Thought so.
I rest my case.
Y'all may now go back to psychoanalyzing Mr. Shea.
July 28, 2011 at 1:24 am
Shea can be wrong even when he's right.
His detestation of Voris has nothing to do with the issue at hand, but runs much much deeper.
For all of you have been banned by the Shea, I recommend the new Facebook group called "Banned by Mark Shea: A Support Group."
http://www.facebook.com/groups/bannedbymarkshea
July 28, 2011 at 1:27 am
https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B3sg9KJVweh1ZWZlNDIxYmMtMWYxMy00ODM4LTgzNTQtZTk3YTQ1Yjk1MGQw&hl=en_US