If I knew I was part a grand cover-up and a conspiracy, I would have dressed nicer. Black. Black would have been a good color for a conspiracy, don’t you think?
Stephen K. Ryan of MinistryValues.com has accused me and a number of others of being in cahoots to keep the world from knowing about Medjugorje. In a recent article at the site, Ryan makes the following startling claims.
But across the “Pond” in the United States there is a different view of Medjugorje and the gate keepers of Catholic opinion seem to work almost in a conspiratorial manner to quell any interest or trust in Mejdugorje. The who’s who of Catholic opinion makers, journalist and bloggers are eerily similar in their skepticism and condemnation. Two things the opinion makers have in common – 1. They have never been to Medjugorje and 2. They are all men.
Patrick Madrid, Patrick Coffin, Mark Shea, Greg Kandra, Pat & Matthew Archbold, Jim Akin, Kevin Knight at New Advent, and the editors of Catholic Culture and the National Catholic Register.
I speak with some authority on this issue. Perhaps no other reporter of Catholic news in the United States has personally reached out individually via e-mail or phone calls to prominent opinion makers who write about Medjugorje than Ministryvalues.com . What I have found is that they all talk to each other and they all have basically the same reasons for being “against” Medjugorje . They are against Medjugorje because – 1. To them the issue is one of disobedience against the local Bishop who has jurisdiction over Medjugorje and 2. One of the “Seer’s (Ivan) has a nice house and worst of all he married a Massachusetts beauty pageant contestant.
Now Ryan makes a number of outrageous, silly, and just plain stupid accusations in his ridiculous piece. Let me address a few of them.
First, he colors me as a skeptic and as one who has condemned Medjugorje. I challenge Mr. Ryan to find one negative thing that I have said about Medjugorje, just one. He will not be able to do it. To the best of my recollection I have mentioned Medjugorje three times. One was a joke during the 2008 election in which I titled a piece “Palin Visits Medjugorje” which of course was not the Alaska Governor but Michael Palin of Monty Python fame. More on that in a moment. The second time I criticized bad reporting about Medjugorje by Reuters. And the third was in a serious context in which I explained the peril for the Church in ruling on Medjugorje one way or the other.
Now 3 times over five years is not a lot, I grant you. But I have written about it. Further, in none of my articles have I said anything critical or supportive of Medjugorje. I generally refrain from writing about it because there is little to be gained by doing so. I have found that most of the Catholics who read me on a regular basis have made up their minds, either pro or con, and anything I say on the matter is likely to be misconstrued and generate much more heat than light. I could not change anyone’s mind on the matter even if I had the inclination to do so, which I don’t.
What could I possibly add to what has been written and debated about Medjugorje for the last 30 years? Absolutely nothing. So I choose not to write about it. This decision was in part formed from the reaction I got just from posting the joke about Palin and Medjugorje in 2008. I think I got 100 emails just for that. Half accused me of mocking Our Lady by making a joke and the other half accused me of being a Medjugorje promoter for even posting the video. 100 emails just for that and I think I only had about 50 readers then. Like I said, nothing to be gained by giving my opinion on matters I am highly unqualified to judge.
So in all the particulars of that, Mr. Ryan got it wrong. He states that he has personally reached out individually to me and the others. Nope, never happened. He says that we all talk to each other about it. Nope. Never happened. I did speak to Jimmy Akin about the show Fringe once, but that was it. The other reasons he states, the Bishop thing and the beauty queen thing, are equally absurd as I have never said them in my articles or even in a private conversation with anyone. Not once. Never. And then he calls us sexist. Really. Mr. Ryan is either delusional or a liar.
Last but not least, Mr. Ryan emphatically states, since he speaks with some self-proclaimed authority on the matter, that I have never, that none of us have ever been to Medjugorje. How could he possibly know that? Has he filed a freedom of information act request to procure my international travel records? I have been all over the world. How could Mr. Ryan possibly know whether I have ever stopped in Medjugorje to see for myself? Whether or not I have have hiked and prayed on Podbrdo and Križevac. He couldn’t.
I ask Mr. Ryan to consider an apology to all those he has accused with absolutely no basis. I also ask Mr. Ryan to consider whether or not bandying about such obvious falsehoods with no regard to facts or evidence helps or hurts his ‘authority’ in promoting the supposed apparition site to which he is so dedicated?
April 28, 2012 at 6:02 am
by the way.
Regarding the "cabal" controlling the dialog
Greg Kandra – weighed in on his site with an article about my piece – comments closed
Mark Shea – I have been banned on his site (after i think my second comment)
Patrick Coffin stopped in on this site for a minute – Hit and run artist- he is like trying to engage a water spider in a conversation – basically everybody is too stupid or crazy for him. One way street.
I sent the Archbold brothers a long email this morning thanking them for keeping the comments open. I also said I would communicate that indeed the Archbolds and CMR have been fair and balanced with Medjugorje that they have not "condemed it."
I did say they are part of the gate keeper mentality with there position of talking about everything except – but that is certainly there freedom.
New Advent Kevin Knight.. I wish he would show his face but he is a chicken – He is perhaps the #1 reason my article was written . He and Patrick Madrid ambushed me on their blogs/sites by posting an article about me and an article I wrote called "Medjugorje is missing its wizard"
Madrid wrote an article about me and refused to link to my story he was referring to. Then New Advent put Madrid's article on their site. He also refused to link to my article. Conspiratorial? who knows? smear job yes. Unethical absolutely.
stephen ryan
Publisher
ministryvalues.com
April 28, 2012 at 1:13 pm
"OUR LADY of AMERICA " pray for us.
April 28, 2012 at 1:14 pm
"OUR LADY of AMERICA " pray for us.
April 29, 2012 at 6:20 am
I leave for a few days and….
/sigh
Well, I got maybe a page-down or two into the comments and stopped reading. Doesn't matter.
I have found that most of the Catholics who read me on a regular basis have made up their minds, either pro or con, and anything I say on the matter is likely to be misconstrued and generate much more heat than light.
Thank you for this.
I'm not entirely sure about all the various apparitions that have been approved as worthy of belief, let alone those that haven't. Doesn't mean I disbelieve them, like the claim "the moon is blue cheese," but doesn't mean I think they're a statement of fact.
April 29, 2012 at 3:41 pm
Steve,
Sorry for the delay; I don't mean to neglect your comment! I'm out of town for a few days, but I'll return within a few more.
April 29, 2012 at 3:42 pm
"anything I say on the matter is likely to be misconstrued and generate much more heat than light."
Until the "doubters, skeptics" understand that Medjugorje is the third most visited Catholic "Shrine" in the world behind guadalupe and Lourdes it is difficult to have a conversation when the doubters continue to insist Medjugorje is an obscure "private revelation. "
Until skeptics see that Medjugorje is an unsolved
religious mystery that has reached MILLIONS of Catholics, it will be difficult to have a discussion.
Skeptics trump card is always "private revelations don't matter anyway so why talk about it in the first place.
Forget that Medjugorje is an "apparition" or private revelation it is a meaningless description in certain ways.
Medjugorje is a gigantic religious movement/phenomena – regardless of belief and that is the story the skeptics can;t seem to grasp.
The brain freeze that skeptics have is that Medjugorje now has nothing to do with "believe or not believe" it is a real breathing thing – the genie is out of the bottle and they just don;t get this.
Catholic reporters/ opinion makers fail to grasp this distinction.
April 29, 2012 at 5:06 pm
Why my charge that Catholic reporting on medjugorje is weak is not a baseless charge. In the past year the most objection, informative and balanced reporting on Medjugorje has come from ABC News and BBC – lame stream media.
Expensive productions about Medjugorje were broadcast on prime time.
Where was the National Catholic Register when it came to reporting on the thirty year anniversary Medjugorje?
April 29, 2012 at 7:51 pm
Not really sure about Medjugorie, but I will say after reading the comments here and on the other blogs initially referenced I am very unimpressed and completely amazed at the lack of charity being exhibited by these bloggers and their readers. You should all be ashamed of yourselves.
April 30, 2012 at 1:53 pm
"you should be ashamed of yourselves"
Over the years, I have developed an unscientific theory about the internet and comboxs.
Those who they "You should be ashamed of yourselves" (thrust me – there is a whole tribe out there trolling the internet looking to strike) have nothing to say.
Stephen Ryan
Publisher
ministryvalues.com
April 30, 2012 at 1:57 pm
ministryvalues.com said…
let's try this one more time….
"you should be ashamed of yourselves"
Over the years, I have developed an unscientific theory about the internet and comboxs.
Those who say "You should be ashamed of yourselves" (trust me – there is a whole tribe out there trolling the internet looking to strike) have nothing to say.
Stephen Ryan
Publisher
ministryvalues.com
April 30, 2012 at 3:33 pm
It is kind of the "everybody does it" level of argument, isn't it?
April 30, 2012 at 4:11 pm
Prominent Priest Blogger, Fr. Longenecker, has weighed in on this story and his experience at Medjugorje.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/2012/04/my-medjugorje-story.html#comment-34007
Stephen Ryan
April 30, 2012 at 6:16 pm
Apologies in advance for the length of this (in 3 parts); these sorts of things don't lend themselves to sound-bytes (and I'm not known for my brevity, anyway! 🙂 )…
Steve wrote, in reply to my comment:
To Paladin: It is important to accept the significance that a Roman Catholic Cardinal and author/editorial editor of the Catholic rule book that sits on every priest's desk in the world has invited seers into his Church.
Well… I see no clear way to discern what that significance IS, exactly; not only is the significance unknown and hard to quantify (e.g. how would one evaluate the Cardinal's acts of personal piety? They can be mistaken/misplaced, just as ours can be…), but even if it were "significant" in some way, I see no clear way (barring further evidence) to tell HOW it is significant (e.g. significantly good, or significantly bad, or relatively insignificant for anyone but him, etc.)
Do you see the problem? Unless we grant your premise (i.e. that Medjugorje is valid and good and wholesome and "necessary" [with needed qualifiers understood]), we can't decide about the goodness (or even the significance) of the Cardinals, actions, at all! I'm not saying that the Cardinal would be culpable for any error, necessarily; but even Saints have been misled by various spiritual causes.
We get nowhere when we look at "other" apparitions that have no ecclesiastical support
I mentioned the other, unapproved apparitions (and their effects) for at least four reasons:
1) to show a clear parallel between Medjugorje (an apparition which has been unequivocally condemned by all the bishops of the particular diocese, to this day) and Necedah (an apparition which has been unequivocally condemned by all the bishops of the particular diocese, to this day).
2) to show that popularity, strength of devotion, number of devotees, etc., simply don't tell us much that's of any use. True works of God can be wildly popular, or they can be extremely local/provincial (or even actively unpopular/persecuted); counterfeit "works of God" can be wildly popular, or they can be extremely local/provincial (or even actively unpopular/persecuted). Given only that we see popularity, however could one tell the difference between "true" and "false"? It's simply not possible, without further information.
3) to show that even "good fruits" are not an unerring proof of the validity of an alleged apparition, since Necedah (a demonstrably false apparition) also had fruits identical to those at Medjugorje (increased devotion, people coming back to the Sacraments, lukewarm souls becoming fervent, conversions, etc.).
4) to show that NOTHING–not even the most overwhelming apparition/locution–excuses direct disobedience to those who have rightful jurisdiction… ever. Such disobedience was, and is to this day, rampant in Necedah; and it was, and is (forgive me), rampant among the on-the-ground promoters of Medjugorje. That simply must stop.
Medjugorje is different – right now – who knows what will happen.
My dear fellow, NO ONE knows what "will happen"; we can only know what HAS happened, and go from there. The alleged apparitions have been condemned in the strongest possible terms by two successive bishops of Mostar (the diocese in Bosnia/Herzegovina in which Medjugorje is found), and the local supporters (including the publishers of Medjugorje devotional materials in the diocese) have flatly disobeyed, ignored, and even assaulted them. I hope you can understand how this doesn't leave a good impression on those who wish to discern the truth of the matter?
(cont'd)
April 30, 2012 at 6:18 pm
Steve wrote:
people say Pope JPII "protected" Medjugorje others say "Humbug" BS – "show me the money"
And I say that the personal opinions of Blessed John Paul II (and he made quite clear that they were personal opinions), one way or the other, are quite irrelevant… and the Holy Father would be the first to say so.
people say Schonborn a friend of the Pope invited seer into his Cathedral.
See above; I'm afraid this settles nothing at all, even if it were provably true.
others say "He supports gay marraige (he does not)they say he is disobedient to the local bishop!
And again: even if all counts were true, it'd be irrelevant to the point at hand. Evil supporters do not invalidate an apparition, and saintly private supporters do not authorise it.
People say Mark Marivalle is esteemed and has had private meeting with Popes and sat on investigation committees; Other say he is a dupe and an apparition chaser
See above; this is utterly beside the point.
What is the point of all this. No one is going to be convinced.
I agree, insofar as this specific point goes.
I see millions of people find something good in Medjugorje.
Perhaps… but that's a very vague (and somewhat conclusion-assuming) way of putting things; millions can "find something good" in the death camps of Auschwitz (e.g. St. Maximilian Kolbe), but this has no direct bearing on the location/alleged apparition.
And with that I encounter a "force" that says "NO!" "Wait!" yet give no basis for their demands – no proof of hoax.
My dear fellow… surely you know that you have things rather backwards? The Church does not say, "Unless an alleged apparition is proven to be false, feel free to promote it and jump in with both feet!" Rather, She urges caution… especially in matters which are not necessary for salvation (e.g. any private revelations).
If there was fraud Medjugorje would be a distant memory.
(*sigh*) I wish it were that simple, friend! But Necedah is not a distant memory, nor is the false "apparition" at Bayside, nor is atheism, nor is the pseudo-gnosticism given new life by Dan Brown (cf. the "Da Vinci Code", and other such rubbish). We fallen humans, with our weakened wills and darkened intellects and perpetual assaults by the Father of Lies, are rather prone to cling to falsehood when it suits us.
(cont'd)
April 30, 2012 at 6:20 pm
Steve wrote:
Why should I wait? what is there to be afraid of?
Personally, I wait because there are only three main possibilities, re: Medjugorje:
1) Medjugorje is true (but not mandatory for belief, even if approved).
2) Medjugorje is a hoax/mistake/delusion (i.e. false, with merely natural explanation)
3) Medjugorje is diabolical (i.e. false, with preternatural explanation).
Given that it is not required, and that two of the three lead to disaster, and that the local bishops have condemned both the apparitions and the behaviour of the key seers/promoters, I find that to be reason aplenty to keep my distance.
To me it comes down to "Do you believe in the supernatural or not" I do.
Come now, friend! That's a false dilemma: "Either one believes in Medjugorje, or one does not believe in the supernatural!" That is simply not so; many (such as I) believe completely in the supernatural (i.e. the agency of God in the world), but do not believe that each and every alleged apparition must be supernatural (i.e. of God).
Diane K. (she of Te-Deum) asked me on her open combox […] all that mattered to her was: "What is your position of birth control?"
Hm. I read the thread, and–while I certainly won't speak for Diane–I do think that other things mattered to her, besides that; it wasn't the "only" thing about which she was concerned. As to why she brought up the idea in the first place… I won't presume to guess.
To paraphrase my answer about birth control, not that anybody should care – "It should be between the sinner and the confession box")
Well… that's true, in the strict and limited sense that such a matter, when involving a specific person, should not be shouted from the roof-tops; but that's hardly the end of the matter (as I think you've already said, when [later] you clarified that such activity was sinful). Artificial Contraception is always and everywhere an objective moral evil, even if the culpability of any given person might be greater or lesser.
Medjugorje is known as the confessional to the world. Medjugorje gets people into the confession box then things begin to take care of themselves.
Any encouragement to get the faithful back to Holy Confession is, indeed, a great good. I would merely offer one main caution: even such an apparent good can become evil, if the "true faith" of those devotees is more firmly in the particular alleged apparition [e.g. Medjugorje] than in the Church, as such. I've heard Medjugorje devotees claim that, if Medjugorje were to be declared false by the Vatican, they would ignore the declaration entirely… and possibly even view the Pope as a heretic. I found that disturbing and insanely foolish.
Our Lady asks us to seek peace in the heart – peace peace and only peace. Put God in the fist place.. I work on this everyday.
That's commentable and good; so should everyone. But I'd gently suggest that no given alleged apparition has a "monopoly" on such true sentiments; they are true, and they would be true, even had no alleged apparitions/extraordinary events taken place at Medjugorje, or anywhere else. It's really not wise to suggest that one must accept thus-and-so apparition in order to embrace such a life-course.
April 30, 2012 at 6:45 pm
to paladin
thanks for the thoughtful response.
Mine will be shorter – a couple points
1. I say
"And with that I encounter a "force" that says "NO!" "Wait!" yet these people give no basis for their demands – no proof of hoax."
You say
"My dear fellow… surely you know that you have things rather backwards? "
I disagree with you on this.
People think Medjugorje is "miraculous" – Medjugojre converts people – it got me back to the Church and the confession booth. That is why it is important that all us don;t "wait". As I said earlier – Medjugorje and Our Lady already completed their mission with me no matter what the church rules. – Souls are at risk for those who wait (like mine)
2. Regarding Diane K.
100s of comments and thousands of words and all Diane K wanted to play was "gotcha". She wanted my answer on birth control…I answered her question in a heartfelt manner and then she cut me off. She is like the scribes and the pharisees during the time of Jesus.
Interesting the it come down that – to the issue of sex 2000 years later.
The pharisees tried to play gotcha with Jesus – with the prostitute – They thought (like Diane K) they had Jesus boxed into a corner over the sins of the prostitute. jesus then said – "He without sin throw the first stone " The scribes were at a loss for words and then quickly closed their comboxs and went home.
April 30, 2012 at 10:22 pm
Steve wrote:
thanks for the thoughtful response. Mine will be shorter
🙂 I don't blame you.
[Steve]
And with that I encounter a "force" that says "NO!" "Wait!" yet these people give no basis for their demands – no proof of hoax.
[Paladin]
My dear fellow… surely you know that you have things rather backwards?
[Steve]
I disagree with you on this.
All right; but do remember that we need to base our positions on reason, and not merely on sentiment and emotion (however intense it might be). I do not say that emotion is bad; far from it! But I do say that emotions are simply not designed to "lead" us anywhere… and we are only justified in "following our hearts" if our hearts happen to be going in the correct direction! We can only confirm that by consulting with sober reason and logic… which means that we're not really "following our hearts" at all; it's simply the case that both we and our hearts are (or should be) following our reason, all along.
People think Medjugorje is "miraculous"
Some do. But I'm afraid that solves nothing, since they may well be mistaken. Many have been the cases where humans thougt something to be a "miracle" (in the supernatural sense of the word), only to find later that they were wrong.
Medjugojre converts people – it got me back to the Church and the confession booth.
I don't at all wish to diminish that excellent result! But no apparition of any sort (approved, unapproved, or something in-between) is ever meant to take the place of one's faith in GOD, and God alone. Even the Blessed Mother, herself (who undeniably exists, even if all apparitions since the beginning of the Christian era were thrown out), exists only to point us to Her Divine Son, Jesus. No apparition should ever be seen as the sine qua non (i.e. "can't live without it, my faith crumbles if it crumbles") of our faith. Even the approved ones simply aren't designed to do that!
(cont'd)
April 30, 2012 at 10:24 pm
Steve wrote:
That is why it is important that all us don;t "wait".
My friend, I beg you: do not be rash! We cannot allow our hearts to run away with our heads… which is all too easy for us humans to let happen. Our human hearts are fickle, and they can be utterly captivated by glamours and baubles (cf. Jeremiah 17:9). It's akin to saying, "I'm absolutely giddy over that new girl whom I met today; I've simply got to marry her, and marry her NOW!" Christian prudence will say, "Half a moment, friend! Slow down! If one's emotions are captivated, that is hardly the basis for a holy, stable, life-long marriage! If God truly means for her to be your bride, then a sober and calm discernment will bear that conclusion out… and a delay is necessary precisely BECAUSE we need to let our giddy intoxication wear off a bit, and sober up enough to think clearly. Do not let even the understandable and intoxicating excitement of a new romance make the solemn decision for you!" It's painfully hard to hit the "manual override" button in such circumstances; but that is precisely what we must do. Just so, in the case of your (admittedly beautiful) experience regarding Medjugorje.
As I said earlier – Medjugorje and Our Lady already completed their mission with me no matter what the church rules. – Souls are at risk for those who wait (like mine)
And that statement, friend, is what worries me the most. My wife, in fact, stumbled upon a book (I forget the title) which described a band of Christian missionaries who, with a fervent and child-like faith, spread the Gospel as they saw best. The complications came when they encountered a Catholic mission parish; the priest told them (politely) that they were already Christian, but the head missionary said, "No, the Spirit has told me that you are idolaters, and that you worship idols!" The priest tried to explain that the "idols" were actually Church statues used in worship of God, but the missionaries insisted that they were idols. "Bring them all out," the head missionary said, "and we'll do as Elijah did: if God sends down fire from heaven to burn them up, then they are idols!" The priest (bemusedly) brought out a few statues of the Blessed Virgin, etc… and the missionaries prayed… whereupon a fire burst from nowhere and consumed the statues completely! The priest (according to the story) "got very excited" and "went into the church to bring out the rest of the statues to be burned".
So… what do you think? Were the statues of the Blessed Virgin "idols"? After all: sincere and enthusiastic missionaries said so, and "power from on high" (supposedly) confirmed their testimony by burning up those statues; "signs and wonders" confirmed it, didn't they?
This is the moment of decision: the only possible way we know spiritual truth from error, ultimately, is to obey the voice of Christ speaking through the Church founded, protested, and infallibly guided by His Spirit (cf. Luke 10:16, John 16:13, 1 Timothy 3:15, etc.). We know that iconoclasm is a heresy, simply because Christ's Church formally condemned it (cf. 2nd Council of Nicaea). Otherwise, who are we to "fight fire from Heaven"? (See Revelation 13:13 for insight into that!)
(cont'd)
April 30, 2012 at 10:24 pm
Steve,
When you refer to "Church rules" (and yes, I know you meant it in the sense of "comes down on the issue, one way or the other"), you refer to the very things which keep us from being utterly lost. They are not only important; they distinguish us from everything which is not of Christ! No… obedience leads to righteousness (cf. Romans 6:16, etc.), whereas disobedience leads to death (cf. Hebrews 4:11, etc.). This isn't something which we are free to take or leave, as we see fit (cf. Judges 21:25, etc.). It is precisely for the sake of the salvation of souls that we must cling to Peter and to obedience to him… because Christ appointed him as shepherd over us, and we can expect to meet the fate of straying sheep (e.g. torn apart by wolves, perhaps in sheep's clothing) if we do not follow and obey our shepherds. This is why disobedience alarms me so much, especially in "dramatic/sensational" phenomena such as this.
April 30, 2012 at 11:11 pm
Paladin,,
couple things
1. at Fatima "In the end MY heart will triumph." I see that manifestation at Medjugorje. Where do you see Our Lady's heart triumphing?
2.From your writing you reveal that you are not familiar with Medjugorje – A major component of Medjugorje are its LASTING
conversion. This is a decisive aspect to Medjugorje. It is something you need to understand.
Go to my site and read the comments…there are over 100 and you will see that there are many testimonies how they were converted by Medjugorje 10,20,years ago.
You are speculating I think you would be better off if you investigated for yourself.