It seems that every time I post on a topic even tangentially related to the Latin Mass, a parade of people from whom I have never heard before chime in to tell me that they were made to feel unwelcome by the TLM community.
In my previous post, I had a commenter accuse me of being one of those snobby TLM types that this blog repeatedly “makes him feel bad about himself” because he doesn’t know Latin.
Oh the horror. Only one little problem with this anecdote of incivility, I don’t speak Latin. Oh and I never use Latin on the blog.
I think that this is very common these days for people to ‘hear’ about the snobbishness of the TLM community and to project their own feelings on to anyone they suspect is in that camp.
I don’t speak Latin and certainly have never criticized anyone for being just like me. And while I have an affection for the traditional mass, I only attend the mass maybe 10% of the time. That means that 90% of the time I attend the same mass as all the non-snobbish people.
I suspect that such projection makes up a substantial amount of the anecdotes of how upon first attendance at a TLM, people were ‘made’ to feel unwelcome.
How do you make people feel unwelcome so quickly? Do they sneer and glare at the interloper? Do they tell them that they don’t want their kind round these parts? I highly doubt it.
Rather, I think that people show up to a mass in a language they do not know with customs they do not know, they see all these other people who seem to know what is going on, and they simply get intimidated. I suspect that some people project the source of their own feelings of inadequacy on to those who seem adequate. Maybe not all, but a lot.
Are there things that Latin Mass communities could do for these folks? Sure. Most have the free little red missals to borrow in the back to help out. But beyond that, I am unsure.
I am sure if smiling member of Latin Mass communities were to descend on to every unfamiliar face that walks through the door ‘to help them’ the horror stories would triple.
As for my own experience when first attending a Latin Mass some 13 years ago, I had no idea what was going on. None.
So after mass I hung around to introduce myself to a few folks. They were overjoyed that somebody was expressing an interest in the Mass. They told me about the little red missals and they told me to sit next to them next time and they would help me out. They were about as welcoming and helpful as could be, but I had to introduce myself first. That is human nature I suppose. I took the first step and they were delighted to help me take the rest.
Eventually, after attending more frequently, I bought my own missal and was able to learn many of the proper responses. I never learned Latin, but I learned enough to know what was going on. In short, I became adequate. To an outside eye, I suppose I seemed like I knew what I was doing.
As such, I was able to help a few other folks out over the years giving them a red missal and pointing out a page or what week of the year we were in.
This is something that I have never done or seen done at a ordinary form mass. Maybe it is easier because it is in the vernacular, but I never see anyone finding the newbies and helping them out. I have only seen and done this in the TLM community. And when I attend the TLM in a community where I am an unfamiliar face, I usually have a lot of old ladies smiling at me.
I regretfully only get to attend the TLM occasionally now because of our crazy weekend schedule with the kids, but I do when I can.
I know first hand that the TLM can be intimidating in its unfamiliarity, but to those who ask for help, help will always be given. If you think it won’t, that this ‘type’ of person will never help you, perhaps the snob you despise is in the mirror.
February 17, 2014 at 3:33 am
I still think the TLM community can sometimes be a bit standoffish and not exactly friendly, and I say so from the position of being "one of them". But it really depends on the parish, and the general sense of community (or lack thereof) that the place possesses for whatever reason. My impression has always been there is a very individualistic sort of a sense surrounding it. Over time you get to know people in an organic fashion from seeing them regularly, and things start to thaw. But you have to give people a chance to warm up to you.
February 17, 2014 at 3:50 am
Calling the New Mass inferior isnt snobbery. It's truth. One is a catholic mass organically developed based off Catholic Faith and Theology. The other is a mass concocted by a committee for the purpose of allowing non-catholic ecumenist ideology to reign free and be fully compatible with it.
February 17, 2014 at 3:51 am
What does the personality of the latin mass community matter? Our Faith has nothing to do with things like that. Find the truth and cling to it. This is an issue for pastors, not for us. Our job is to find how we can best worship God and do so. It makes no difference if we do so surrounded by saints or hypocrites, nor is it our business.
February 17, 2014 at 3:51 am
seamusberen, that thing you call gnosis is what was called the Catholic Faith for the last 1900+ years
February 17, 2014 at 3:52 am
Allison, I'm sure you harbor some justifiable animosity towards the people that you know (or hardly know), but it is time to directly point out to you the hypocrisy of your comments as less than charitable regarding those you reference in your above comments. It just so happens that my family home schools (for 3 years now). We have been exclusively attending the Latin Mass for roughly 5 years now. Setting aside your personal opinion of those you know (whom again I dare suggest is a few and.. not well), and ask yourself exactly what it is that makes these people..?? bad Catholics ?? I mean, what else would you be implying? If they are not bad Catholics then what exactly are you judging them on?? If that which is earthly and man-centered is separated from that which is heavenly and Christ-centered, are you confident enough to place the blame on their Mass preference?
Adherence to the TLM is one aspect, as is faithfulness to the precepts and doctrines of the Church, like not using contraception and being open to children. You and I both know this is not what happens with more than 50% of all "regularly attending Catholics" who are products of the last 50 years.
You know what is more welcoming for me? Entering a quite Church where everyone is praying or sitting quietly. Wearing their Sunday best (even if it is jeans). Other families who are outwardly living the faith (i.e. they have children appropriate to their age/years of marriage), and I don't have to convince my children why it's important to show reverence when most do not. What don't I care about? I don't care about personal relationships with other parishioners, and I don't assume they are casting judgment on me (even if they are). If I get a scowl – so what. Talk about falling into the devil's traps Allison. The best moral example I ever received, what helped my wife and myself overcome the doubt and fear of being open to God's plan of children in our life came from a "snobby" Latin Mass family whom never spoke to us for over 2 years, but their example gave us the moral support we really needed, praise be to God for that.
A few words of advice that I think worked well for me: Charity comes in many forms, never stop looking for Christ's guiding hand in others.
February 17, 2014 at 4:04 am
Wow. Just read the comments on the other thread. Geez people, get a grip!
I attended the TLM several times, not worn a head covering and had pants on. No funny looks from anyone, and it was packed. As for before and after, well before, most are arriving not long before Mass, as they are mainly large families in this crowd. And beautifully, many are accompanied by extended family. Then they immediately drop to their knees – so yeah, not a lot of "you going to brunch after, or are you hitting the links later? Going on. Upon leaving, yes, most are quiet and I found myself feeling the same– I had a sense of quiet wonder in me.
I don't know Latin. You don't need to. If you can't figure out what's going on, you most not pay much attention to what is going on in regular Mass!
The last one I attended was Easter. It was incredible. And it was 3 1/2 hrs long! ONE Priest. It was incredible and beautiful. He spoke to us as intelligent, properly catechized adults, and it was one if the most 'real.' Homilies I've heard. (And I don't just mean properly Catechized in that you know 'the rules" he assumed you had taken a genuine interest in your faith and understood the doctors of the Church etc.)
It does make it very difficult to go to regular Mass and hear how Aunt Matilda's cookies Fr. had as a child somehow brings out an aspect if the readings. Now I sound uppity! Yikes! I don't mean to, these are just facts!
It is true that I would try and only go to Latin Mass if I were not near a University – I love going to Mass where there are so many students, it gives me some hope for the future if the Church in America. (And even this campus has a TLM Mass now, though I've not gone to it.)
My last choice is one of the many local parishes,(reg Mass) for some of the reasons stated above, it just seems like no one really wants to be there, and many seem like there are there only to be seen and to say they went to Mass.
February 17, 2014 at 4:16 am
Dear all, I wrote this: http://www.catholicsistas.com/2013/09/23/want-reverence-reverent/. The end.
February 17, 2014 at 5:28 am
I cannot tell you how discouraging all this in-fighting and bickering is to a relatively new Catholic. 🙁
February 17, 2014 at 6:30 am
Don't be discouraged, Erika… This is a very sensitive topic for many. Definitely a "hot button" issue. May God bless you and welcome!
February 17, 2014 at 7:06 am
Catholics, trad or liberal, are an unfriendly bunch. I don't feel welcome anywhere.
February 17, 2014 at 7:06 am
Catholics, trad or liberal, are an unfriendly bunch. I don't feel welcome anywhere.
February 17, 2014 at 9:39 am
I was watching a dance show the other night – some dancers are trying to get fat people to do ballet, to challenge perceptions of beauty. The dance teacher was a professional ballet dancer, who was extremely driven and had high expectations of the girls. The girls agreed she was "scary" – that's a judgement I remember making about teachers as well. In fact, this dance teacher, and my teachers, were not scary at all – what is scary is the degree of effort required to make a proper job of something.
Catholics, and trads in particular, are not scary. But we do have high expectations of ourselves and others, and that comes across as scary. There is always a better way of communicating, but those expectations are justified given Jesus' call to perfection.
February 17, 2014 at 12:42 pm
Allison,
Where do you get the belief that "the very definition of "mass" is "a gathering""?
February 17, 2014 at 1:58 pm
Jeffrey – precisely.
Some sappy song?
The Jesuits?
It's a gathering of people seeking intimacy with the properties of Divinity in the Sacred Body and Blood of Christ.
It's a gathering of people desperate to connect with their lover and Beloved and immerse themselves in Him. Completely.
One precious hour where we put everything out of our mind and heart to connect with everything that matters to us. Every answer. Every cure. Every blessing.
If you've connected, it overwhelms you. You're still lost in it for hours and you can't wait to get back to it.
Dave, I appreciate your honesty and humility, very much.
I am a daily Mass goer to the NO and absolutely adore it. But the truth of the matter is, we have the Liturgy and the homily and the music and the rubrics at a Mass — and there are a lot of problems with one or another component that obstructs mystical prayer.
Aside from the focus of rubrics and noise and people coming looking for entertainment and a social event with them..
We have the absence of teaching. The starvation.
We have dissent.
The problems are mostly at the Sunday Masses (after 7:30 am) but that is when the bulk of our people get exposure to what it is all about.
They're being robbed.
I'm robbed when I try to immerse myself and can't do it because of the cacophony of poor, uncatechized souls looking for a fix from me or you or the giggle from the priest to lift their spirits. It is pitiful.
February 17, 2014 at 2:21 pm
fedderoffm,
You've got a lot going on there.
I'm a daily NO attendee. I don't have a 'preference', other than needing and desiring to passionately connect to my Beloved.
People who've turned the NO into a gathering of people expecting a social connection with them have calibrated the rubrics of the NO to satisfy their longing to connect to you brother.
The cheap perversion of purpose for being there is about as sane as inviting high school band into your bedroom with your wife as you try to express and express the intimacy that comes from the soul.
If the high school band shows up in your bedroom, there nothing 'prideful' about telling them it's the wrong time and place.
The example of a child, whom you love and adore and do all you can to help that child feel loved and grow with Christ to their full potential, coming into your bedroom at an intimate moment, is a good one.
I would invite you to set aside your emotions over the content of this discussion and think about it.
A child interrupting intimacy is a fumble with the intensity and purpose of what you're doing. It's a distraction. You may not get that moment back.
The fact that you do not welcome interruption from your child during those intimate moments have nothing to do with your deep love and devotion to them.
He may sense that your interruption is unwelcome and think it has something to do with him. That can't be helped. It is the wrong time and place for the purpose of what you were doing.
Making the rubrics of an NO a social gathering to connect to you are distractions to Catholics trying to connect to Christ in mystical prayer.
Wrong time. Wrong place.
You're a big boy now. Time to get over yourself.
February 17, 2014 at 4:14 pm
Hi, I'm the commenter you refer to and you obviously didn't read my comment. I said I have nothing against TLM. However, I can only write of my experiences. If you peruse trad blogs many of them ARE snobby about the TLM. The distinct impression for the 90% of us catholics who "only" go to NO masses is that we are second class citizens. Many, but not all of them, come across as embittered and superior at the same time. I also get sick of people writing as if every NO mass has clowns, lousy vestments and massive divergences from the text. I live in a small village here with a well attended NO mass which could not be more orthodox. As a commentor above says, this is very off putting to a new catholic convert. I wish no offence to people who attend TLM but this is really an issue that has to be dealt with.
February 17, 2014 at 4:25 pm
You said that this blog makes you feel bad because you don't know Latin. In black & white champ.
You 'only' go to NO masses but you know so much about so many TLM types.
When do I write about 'clown masses'. Umm, that is right. Never.
February 17, 2014 at 4:44 pm
Snobbery is a Catholic thing, not limited to those who prefer the EF Mass. Maybe it's cliques that form, making it hard for new parishioners to feel welcome. The cliques are there irrespective of liturgical preferences, and when one group forms that prefers the EF Mass, it may well become such a clique within a larger parish that has both Masses, and then appear to be snobbish, and be hard to become part of without sharing the same liturgical preferences. But it's still a Catholic thing, not an EF Mass thing.
There's a joke that goes like this:
What's the difference between Baptists and Catholics?
Catholics greet each other at the bottle store.
Baptists greet each other at church.
I've experienced that (always as the outsider) at most Catholic parishes I've been to / belonged to, none of which had the EF Mass (this was all pre-SP). The exception with the OF Mass was a non-Latin-rite congregation supported by uni-ritual Latin rite priests. It was a small congregation – perhaps difficult to form cliques.
The SSPX chapel I attend is different. I've found the people very welcoming. It's also a small congregation. I don't subscribe to the SSPX theology (where it differs from mainstream Catholicism) but it's the only Mass I can attend without significant difficulty, and since I prefer the EF Mass, that's a grace from God.
What could be mistaken for snobbery is the not uncommon position that the OF Mass is deficient even if valid, that the EF Mass is better, etc. This is not snobbery but either a theological position (e.g. with the SSPX) or a personal preference coupled with the excitement of finding something so beautiful after disliking the guitars and cymbals and liturgical dancing. Personal preference can easily, but incorrectly, be mistaken for snobbery. Cliques, the third option, are a problem, but not one I have experience with in an EF Mass community, as I've never been part of one large enough to allow cliques to form.
February 17, 2014 at 4:48 pm
I love the TLM. I attend once or twice a year, when I am in a larger city that has the TLM. Meanwhile, I attend the NO mass. I really apprecaite this tradition of the TLM to exist throughout time. I dont feel it invalidates the NO. I dont think much of the clash between them, although I can see distinctions. Anyone could. But to eliminate it completely would be a great loss to our amazing traditions and the longevity and conitnuity of Catholicism. I love it. Im glad it is still available in some places and to teach my children the depth and breadth of our faith I hope it is always available.
In fact the only thing I really dislike abou tthe NO is the offering of peace to everyone. It seems like the equivalent of stopping the superbowl midstream due to a power outage. It just doesnt seem to fit. But I do these things because I am a faithful Catholic and it wasnt made for me, but for Jesus the Christ.
February 17, 2014 at 5:05 pm
I think Americans have been turned into a bunch of timid babies. We need to coddled every step of our lives now. I've never gone to Mass expecting to be love bombed. I go for the Mass. If you don't like the TLM fine but have the decency to let me worship in peace.