The test is not in the easy cases but the hard ones.
Are you pro-life? Are you against torture? Do you believe completely in what the Church teaches or are you one of those ‘except’ people? This is the question I have been asking my self and I would venture that some of the commenters here might do well to do the same.
When one runs a website such as this you see many different types of ‘Catholics.’ You get the fire breathers who question parenting fitness because you let your 17 yr old go to see Harry Potter or that write very serious private emails because it is not ‘Catholic’ to make a joke about the Pope.
You also see another type, the ‘except’ Catholics. We saw this in the debate over torture. Now let me be clear. I am not referring to those who genuinely and honestly debated with themselves over where the line could be properly drawn or if there were ever mitigating circumstances. I don’t think think, as some might argue, that you stray from the faith just for wondering about these issues. That said, there are others who while ostensibly maintaining their Catholic bona fides, say ‘Who cares, they are our enemies -a bunch or terrorists and murderers. I am not shedding one tear for these thugs if they get tortured? They had it coming.’ This is an ‘except’ Catholic. Catholic, with exceptions.
I write this today because I have had to delete too many comments over this Tiller murder. Ostensibly pro life Catholics who have cluttered up the combox with quotes about “Who cares? He had it coming! He just got what he has been dishing out all these years. He was a monster who got what he deserved!”
Long time readers here know that we very very rarely delete comments on CMR. I will, however, delete any comments in which I even get a whiff of this sentiment. I will not have this blogs comments be used by the enemies of life to paint a picture of intolerance. No. Not here. No exceptions.
As for the notion that he got what he deserved? I certainly don’t want what I deserve, do you? With my sins I deserve to be permanently excluded from the company of the God who created me. This is what I deserve. I pray that through the merits of the suffering of Jesus that God overlooks my transgressions so that I do NOT get what I deserve. Remember, if you make exceptions about the faith here on Earth so that folks like Tiller get what they deserve, I fear you may lose the ability to ask for your own exception. I am not willing to take that risk. Are you?
June 1, 2009 at 10:49 pm
We are right to pray, even for those who are dead. We are never wrong to pray. We are right to pray for our enemies. We are never wrong to pray.
It is one thing to be opposed to abortion, it is another to rejoice that an abortionist is dead by a violent hand.
Jesus asked us not to kill for our faith, but to be willing to die for it. Big difference. Pray for Tiller, pray for his murderer, pray for all the angry hearts that have been revealed by this whole sorry episode. It is never wrong to pray.
June 1, 2009 at 10:56 pm
Anonymous wrote, in reply to my comment:
Paladin – not only are you wrong on this, but you are in DIRE need of catechesis. If you bothered to read the biblical quotes you added, they are both referring to praying for enemies WHILE THEY ARE ALIVE. Why? To pray for their CONVERSION.
If you were a Protestant, your reaction might be comprehensible; but since you claim to “support Church teaching” (and claim that I’m “distorting” it), could I remind you that the Church most certainly does pray for the dead? (You might check out 2 Maccabees 12, while you’re at it.)
The quotes are very clear for anyone who reads them (well, almost any apparently).
Perhaps, now that you have some of the bile out of your system, you could reconsider your claims in light of the references above (and numerous similar ones)?
In the case of Tillman, he is now dead, cold in the grave.
Yes (though he’s probably not yet buried, just to be precise). And all faithful and well-informed Catholics can tell you that there is a clear difference between the death of the body, and the eternal “death” of the soul in hell.
If he died unrepentant, practicing in his willful persistent mortal sin did indeed condemn himself to hell, then NOTHING, Zilch, NADA will help him; not your prayers or anything else.
True; the same would be true of you or me, if we died in such a state.
Now, if you believe that a heretic abortionist practicing willful mortal sin until the day of his death is actually in purgatory, then you can pray for his soul.
That’s just the point: there’s no way that YOU can know that he’s not. Nor does your understandable outrage at his murderous offenses excuse you WISHING (or even presuming) that Dr. Tiller is in hell. Where, exactly, is your “crystal ball” by which you know that he’s in hell, and refuse him your obligatory spiritual work of mercy (i.e. praying for the dead), anyway? You can be sure that I’ll pray for the soul of Dr. Tiller–now, and in the future. Wishing someone damned is no way to get on the good side of Dr. Tiller’s Father in Heaven, you know. Don’t you think that the Father loves Dr. Tiller, even now?
Or better yet, pray for his VICTIMS, his family and other living abortionists (i.e. for their conversions)
Whatever makes you think I *dont*, or that I’m not?
But don’t you DARE try to distort church teaching.
I will not dare, and I have not done so; and I hope never to do so. Would you please CALM DOWN and address this reasonably? You’ll get no merit in the eyes of God by throwing wild and wrong accusations… at me, or at anyone else.
As Foxfier Sailorette mentioned above, the teaching is eternal and clear on this subject.
It is. I’m afraid you’ve misunderstood it, however.
Once again, THERE IS NO REASON FOR ANY CATHOLIC TO PRAY FOR THIS MAN NOW THAT HE IS IN DEAD IF HE IS IN HELL.
Forgive me, but it’s quite arrogant of you to assume that he is certainly in Hell, when even the Holy Mother Church dares not make any such pronouncement! Do you not know that such rash judgment on your part is sinful? You do not know, and you cannot possibly know, the state of that man’s soul as he died.
Again: your outrage at Dr. Tiller’s crimes is understandable; but your hatred of him is inexcusable, and it serves only the Enemy. Read Ephesians 6, again; who, exactly, is our enemy?
June 2, 2009 at 1:32 am
Here is account of just one of the "heinous actions" Dr. Tiller performed:
"I looked at the woman as she cried about the baby she wanted so badly, & looked in horror at the films showing the cancer eating the child alive. The pain this child must be in & the cries of the parents as they don’t want to let go. Then I hear Dr. Tiller say…”You are so amazing…all the pain your baby is in & you are going to selflessly take that away. You are being strong for him. You are giving him peace he will never know.” 2 days later I cleaned & dressed that little boy before the parents viewed him. The ghastly tumor that had grown through his chest & out his spine a horrific parasite, & a stark reminder of the life he could never have. I watched this little angle at peace & I cried. For all of them. And I felt blessed to be a part of such a wonderful man, who could look in the face of utter hopelessness, & give them comfort. That child was taken home & lovingly laid to rest. That day is how I will remember Dr. Tiller. May his family find the peace he gave so openly."
June 2, 2009 at 1:32 am
Well said.
June 2, 2009 at 1:36 am
Great, now we're supposed to be happy about killing a kid who has cancer, because it's prettier for the funeral?
Why not just kill everyone at about age 25, then they'll look *fantastic*!
June 2, 2009 at 7:02 am
Paladin your underhanded tactics at debate are truly disgusting. And as you say, I would expect this from a Protestant. Are you sure you aren’t one? You KNOW I am aware that we as Catholics pray for the dead as I mentioned this regarding purgatory. you admit I know this in your later rant. And I said very clearly “if” he is in hell, and furthered that saying if you presume he is in Purgatory then by all means pray for him. I don’t know for any certainty where he is at this moment, nor would I ever presume God’s mercy (a sin that cries out to God for vengeance, and I’m not surprised that either you or Alexander know about this one either). I can say with a clear heart and conscience that due to the high likelihood that he is in hell, I will not pray for him. And this is in complete accord with Catholic teaching on the subject.
June 2, 2009 at 7:09 am
Foxfier Sailorete I agree. That tripe masquerading as a unabashed tug at our heart-strings is simply sickening. I guess we are to believe that the child in question should not have been offered the same pain management or treatments we as society would offer ANY patient with cancer, however terminal. So, next time, instead of cancer, let’s sub in propensity towards cancer. Then propensity towards hazel eyes.
This is morally repugnant.
June 2, 2009 at 7:16 am
One other point, Protestant Palladin, I never wished anyone to hell. Not Tillman, not even you. Looking at the facts at hand is not “judging” (a modernist liberal catch-phrase if I ever heard one). So you are bearing false witness in case you ever worry about your immortal soul.
June 2, 2009 at 7:24 am
Hold up, Anon– how can you decry someone’s debating tactics, and then just call them names?
Beyond the amazing gumption to presume that someone wasn’t granted mercy AND that they didn’t ask for it– charity is supposed to be something we strive for. Or is that too protestant for you, too?
I’m going to guess you’re drawing on this meaning of presumption: But as to the hope whereby a man relies on the power of God, there may be presumption through immoderation, in the fact that a man tends to some good as though it were possible by the power and mercy of God, whereas it is not possible, for instance, if a man hope to obtain pardon without repenting, or glory without merits. This presumption is, properly, the sin against the Holy Ghost, because, to wit, by presuming thus a man removes or despises the assistance of the Holy Spirit, whereby he is withdrawn from sin.
As to praying for folks who look as to be in a bad way, spiritually:
But now theologians are unanimous in teaching that such exceptions never take place and never have taken place, a teaching which should be accepted. If this be true, how can the Church pray in the Offertory of the Mass for the dead: “Libera animas omnium fidelium defunctorum de poenis inferni et de profundo lacu” etc.? Many think the Church uses these words to designate purgatory. They can be explained more readily, however, if we take into consideration the peculiar spirit of the Church’s liturgy; sometimes she refers her prayers not to the time at which they are said, but to the time for which they are said. Thus the offertory in question is referred to the moment when the soul is about to leave the body, although it is actually said some time after that moment; and as if he were actually at the death-beds of the faithful, the priest implores God to preserve their souls from hell. But whichever explanation be preferred, this much remains certain, that in saying that offertory the Church intends to implore only those graces which the soul is still capable of receiving, namely, the grace of a happy death or the release from purgatory.
-Catholic Encyclopedia online, both quotes
June 2, 2009 at 7:33 am
Foxfier Sailorette I fight fire with fire. If someone denegrades me as a Protestant they get what they get. And regarding your cut and paste quote, you don’t seem to have understood it, because it actually validated my point. Read it again (from start to finish without your cut and paste in the middle). Then read 1035 of the new catechism. this should help you out.
June 2, 2009 at 11:36 am
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
June 2, 2009 at 12:15 pm
Just a point to contrast Tiller’s murder with a hypothetical assassination of, say, Dr. Mengele. The biggest difference between life in Nazi Germany and the US is that we still in the US have freedom: the ability to do what is right. Hitler and his minions were monsters who terrorized a continent. You were not free to live the way you wanted to: there is nothing immoral about being Jewish, but they were targeted just for that.
In China, women are forced to have abortions when they already have a child. Forced. We can argue till we’re blue in the face about how women have no “choice” in this country and feel they have to have an abortion: father of the baby doesn’t support her, friends and family all advise her to have an abortion. But, ultimately, she consents to the procedure. Very seldom could we say that she was “forced.”
Our government is still elected freely by us. It is slow moving, and there are politics and entrenchment to fight. But we vote the lawmakers in. It is not a dictatorship.
Since we still live in a free society, we MUST follow the rules and work to change things in a legal and moral manner. Someone who lived in Nazi Germany HAD to operate outside the law in order to be moral (for example: sheltering Jews).
If killing Tiller is OK in your book, then it must be OK to recruit and train others to do the same thing. If that idea makes you squeamish, and it better, it’s because using murder as a tool when you have legal and moral options is inherently evil. No gray here: the 5th commandment is pretty black and white. This is not a war or the actions of a state going through due process to determine guilt or innocence as well as mitigating circumstance before condemning him to death and giving him time to examine his conscience and make peace with God.
I can understand why many pro-lifers would not be sad that he is dead (would not mourn for him), but we should be sad that the extremism of some abortion proponents has led to this extreme reaction on the part of one misguided person.
It’s easy to throw our hands up in despair and say, “I did my part. I voted pro-life. There’s nothing more I can do.” This fight begins and ends way before the legislatures and the courts. We have to be a pro-life people all the time and in every way if we want to end this atrocity. And that means condemning things like Tiller’s murder – not because it makes pro-lifers look bad, but because it is an inherently evil act.