Biden Drops F-Bomb At Signing Ceremony

Patty:

There's a lot in your post. I said that the profane can be used as a vehicle for grace. And yes, it can. Why? Because God uses anything and everything to convey His grace upon us. This means that the profane is not left out.

Profanity in the arts, no matter the medium, can be used so long as it leads to Beauty. The examples you gave, Piss Christ, and the elephant dung Madonna fail to do this. They belong to postmodern art, which is nihilistic at best. Postmodern art sees self-expression as it's only goal. So, again, to use your examples, not only are Piss Christ and elephant dung Madonna offensive to Catholic sensibilities, they are offensive to those who see arts ultimate goal as bringing about Beauty. But that really is a whole other topic altogether. Remember, when Caravaggio first started he was considered a bit profane and people were scandalized by him. Thankfully, the Pope didn't fall into such moralism.

As to fiction, yes, profanity can be a vehicle for grace. Flannery O'Connor dealt very much in the profane, if not in profanity. She knew and understood that grace comes upon those the least willing for it to happen. She never really wrote characters of whom it would only be natural to use profane language. But if she did, I daresay she wouldn't hesitate to use it if it furthered the story. When someone asked her if Catholic doctrine constrained her art, she retorted that the confines of her art were far more strict. In other words, profanity in fiction can either be gratuitous, meaning it neither serves the art of the story nor the reader, or it can be true to the story, and ultimately true to the reader.

We need to buck up. No longer should we be scandalized by profanity. This doesn't mean that we have to use it, like it, or even accept it as good. But for heaven's sake, let's live in reality and not be scandalized by it! That serves no purpose but to allow us to keep our heads in the sand and runaway from culture.

Did Saints use profanity? Well, it's hard for me to imagine that Augustine's conversion was so immediate and resolute that he never uttered a profane word after it. I can also picture St. Peter, a fisherman using some himself!

Another novel you would miss out on because of vulgarity is Push, by Sapphire. The movie "Precious" was based on it. Grace and Beauty prevail in this vulgar-ridden and unsentimental novel.

Maurisa:

With all due respect, if you do not agree that grace come through vulgarity or the profane, then you are limiting God. I cannot place such limits on Him. For a contemporary example of how grace works through profanity, at least in literature, try the novel I proposed to Patty: Push, by Sapphire. Well, no on second thought, don't try that one–it is probably too extreme. It's a relentless novel of abuse and degradation, but ultimately, Hope and Beauty prevail.

In a novel like Push, the profanity and the vulgarity is used to such an extent that it reinforces the debasement of the main character, Precious. And because the reader sees so clearly how she is debased, we can then see even clearer her Beauty and the grace with which she lives. By all rights and purposes, this is one character that should have absolutely no hope for anything good in this world. But she does. Again, the novel is not for the light-hearted, or even the medium-hearted. It was difficult for me to read and I'm not scandalized by vulgarity. It was difficult for me because of the level of abuse she suffers.

Try Cormac Mccarthy or Flannery O'Connor. Go with O'Connor first, particularly "A Good Man is hard to find" where the truest lines come from an unrepentant murderer. That's a fine example of profane. McCarthy is a little tougher.

As far as Biden is concerned, his behavior wasn't a scandal to me because I'm not scandalized by such banality.

Patty: you asked for Saints. I gave you Augustine. That's fine if you don't buy it, but I believe then you are keeping your head in the sand and are running away from the culture. St. Paul tells us to test everything, retain what is good. You can't do that if your head is buried.

Flannery O'Connor is a Catholic author. Have you really never heard of her? That surprises me. She is one of the greatest authors of the twentieth century.

And if you refuse to read novels because of profanity, then you are also refusing an opportunity to encounter Christ.

"And if you refuse to read novels because of profanity, then you are also refusing an opportunity to encounter Christ."

I prefer to encounter Christ in the Eucharist, in prayer, and in spiritual reading. I really don't believe I'm missing an opportunity to encounter Christ if I refuse to read a profanity laced novel.

Kim, you can't find Christ in the profane, I have stated that I don't buy it, and I still don't. Yes, those who were profane came to Him, because they sought HEALING. He knew, He who was free from sin knew, that you could not be healed and still be enslaved to sin. So He told them "Go and sin no more." It was this command that healed them in spirit, and it was not condoning their profanity, their lifestyle. Otherwise, He might have said "Go, drink, smoke, have sex, whatever, but look me up once in a while." If we encounter Christ, we must first be prepared to change. Each time, every time. For we are poor and pitiful, and that doesn't mean he loves us any less for it. But that we flock to Him for healing and He tells us again to our hearts "Go and sin no more."

No, I've read Augustine and I don't recall any profanity in it. He is a great Saint and a Doctor of the Church. I would recommend his "Confessions". Beautiful!

And as far as "missing out on the culture"…What can I say? What I "miss out on" in this life, I beg the Lord Almighty to be repaid double-fold in the next.

I never I said I didn't read Flannery, I just tried to point out she wasn't a Saint.

No, I've found that I draw ever closer to Christ, when I realize the things I am willing to give up for him, and of course that would include what is profane in myself. I hope you can at least see my point in that. What is in the heart rests on the lips, and is my profanity really giving "my best for God" or not. No, simply, it is not. You and I both know it, don't be deceived.

The stark contrast between the sacred and the profane, it should be glaringly obvious and maybe this is what you have realized in your "encounters"? I'll pray for you and wish you well.