First the bad news. I hope that even the non-traditionalist, non liturgically minded readers of CMR will agree that the following quote from Roger Cardinal Mahony of Loas Angeles reflects a 3rd grade understanding of liturgy and is just plain offensive. Fr. John Zuhlsdorf reports that the Cardinal said this at the Exhibit Hall at the Religious Education Congres.
Ann Scolari: What are your thoughts on the Trindentine mass?
CardinalMahony: Ann: The Tridentine Mass was meant for those who could not make the transition from Latin to English [or other languages] after the Council. But there is no participation by the people, and I don’t believe that instills the spirit of Christ among us.
There are many things I could say about the previous quote. I could throw quotes from dozens of Popes at you, I can quote Summorum Pontificum, and I can quote Councils all in the effort to pursuade you how utterly un-Catholic is the viewpoint of the Cardinal. But I trust, however, that all Catholics of good will and a fourth grade reading level are already pursuaded.
The title of this post is Good News Bad News, so you might naturally be wondering, “what is the good news?”
Well February 27th was the Seventy third birthday of the Cardinal. So the good news is that it is a mere 728 days until the Cardinal must submit his resignation. Tick, Tock.
March 2, 2009 at 1:47 am
Just goes to prove that when you put a Roman Collar on a jackass all you’ll have is a Roman Collar on a jackass.
March 2, 2009 at 2:59 am
Former-Protestant-Now-Catholic-Convert-Previously-Attended-Novus-Ordo-Now-Exclusively-Attends-Tridentine-Mass-Female-Mantilla-Wearing-Homeschooling-Mother-of-Nine-throwing-back-her head-laughing-maniacally…
How’s that for a transition?
March 2, 2009 at 5:09 am
Anyone want to help a person trapped in the Archdiocese? 2011 can’t come fast enough.
March 2, 2009 at 6:22 am
Amen, Joe – I am in the diocese that hosted the RE Congress he said this at – a little better than LA, but not much.
March 2, 2009 at 6:25 am
I couldn’t express my first reaction in a polite manner. So, here is my second: When was the last time Mahoney met the Spirit of God? My next question is “Who got tired of the other first?”
March 2, 2009 at 10:45 am
—–> Another Catholic born LONG after Vatican II, who has also always prefered the Tridentine liturgy (against all odds and obstacles).
Yes, 728 days is just a blink of an eye in the grand scheme of the church. But hey, stranger things have happened, right? Like people getting hit by meteorites during clown masses? Or flesh-eating virii caught from lycra-based liturgical vestments? Or a rift opening up to swallow the entire Roj Mahal (celebrant included)?
I'm just sezzin…..
March 2, 2009 at 11:16 am
CMR: why not install a countdown clock for “His Imminence” on this site? Hope would be made visible that way and I think you could weather any childish retorts he might muster against your effort and it would be just plain fun
March 2, 2009 at 12:29 pm
Charity folks, CHARITY.
Pray for this man, don’t succumb to Satan’s temptations.
I am a fervent Traditionalist, but will not get pulled down into the muck. Yes, his words are troubling, yes he’s getting old, and yes it will take a generation to undo the damage, but in God all things are possible and we should keep the comments civil and charitable.
If we want to help the Church, the LA Archdiocese, and this bishop, a Rosary will have better effect than “Blogpiling”.
Diriget Deus!
March 2, 2009 at 12:50 pm
Fenton – take this in the spirit of fun.
Regarding Mahoney’s words, they are not really troubling at all if you know anything about this guy. They are simply appropriate, as this is how he really feels. I would have been surprised had he said anything to the contrary.
As per your “it will take a generation to undo the damage” comment, all I can say is from your lips to God’s ears. We will be VERY lucky if all it takes is one generation.
I am reminded about the Germans of WW II and how upon their withdrawl from Forence decided to blow up all the ancient bridges (may God have mercy on them). After they destroyed all of them (save 1) time magazine wrote “Florence as we know it is gone). Mahoney has similarly sold, closed and deformed the most traditional of churches in the LA archdiocese in an attempt to erase everything previous to his “reign”. His crowning “achievement” is the closing/sale of the historic landmark of St Vibiana (the former Cathedral) to be replaced by the monstrosity currently in use. The church in LA as it was is gone. It would take a miracle to bring it back. Miracles of course do happen, but I wouldn’t count on it in our lifetime.
March 2, 2009 at 12:56 pm
I second the call for charity.
Still reeling from his comment though.
But seriously, this man, a cardinal, making such a statement warrants more than prayer. It needs fasting, united fasting by fathiful catholics in his flock. This lent would be a good time.
March 2, 2009 at 1:24 pm
Deusdonat,
I understand the need to “vent one’s spleen” in the face of perceived injustice, and blogging helps many with this…it’s an easy way to publicly gripe, complain, or harrass, but gets little done.
I don’t countenance much of anything that Cardinal Mahony does or says, but he’s still a Prince of the Church and worthy of our respect and prayers. Priests have many demons after them and some (even a bishop cardinal) can succumb to the lies…they need our prayers manifold. He is still in our Catholic Family.
Your contention that it will take more than a generation speaks volumes about the lack of faith you may have about God’s power. It’s not about what you or I want, but what is in God’s plan.
Infantilism is essentially the act of wanting something (like a child) in OUR TIME, not GOD’S. Whether it takes 1 or 10 generations to “repair”, God will do it…but in His time.
The “Spirit of Fun” does, and should, have its limits. To call a Roman Catholic Archbishop a “jackass” is horrible and sinful, not funny. To imply violence on “clown massees” or death from vestments is not funny, charitable, nor Christ-like…it’s truly the twisted work of Satan that you explain away has humor.
I don’t buy it and humbly suggest you seek confession, but that’s up to you.
God Bless, and I pray for Cardinal Mahony and all priests and religious, especially those who may have scales over their eyes to the Truth of the Roman Catholic Church.
And yes, Deusdonat, I pray for you.
March 2, 2009 at 2:57 pm
Fenton,
It is good to pray for people – but not as a weapon of condescension.
We must not wish harm on anyone – even one who will answer for leading the flock astray. However, we must not succumb to the kind of clericalism that keeps us silent as the faith is attacked. Cardinal Mahony has attacked the faith and taught error – this is only the latest instance that pains those of us who have been hurt by his leadership for so very long.
As a minor seminarian, I was at his installation mass. I have witnessed the destruction brought upon the diocese of Los Angeles. Yes, we must respect those who have been given authority, but we are also called to be prophets. Your advice would have kept Isaiah silent – we are all called to preach the truth – even to, or rather, especially to leaders who teach error.
March 2, 2009 at 3:05 pm
Attack the bad words and deeds, not the person. Cardinal Mahoney provides enough of the former that it is not necessary to indulge in attack of the latter.
March 2, 2009 at 3:08 pm
FENTON – OK. You have now crossed the line. I suggest you get off your high horse and see to the log in your eye (you may have to pull it out from your nether regions first) before posting.
“he’s still a Prince of the Church and worthy of our respect and prayers.
Absolutely. As is EVERYONE who walks this earth. Christ said to pray even for our ENEMIES. Mahoney’s red hat doesn’t put him in a different league or category with regard to prayer. And it is indeed his OFFICE which merits our respect. But we do not need to respect his actions (or lack thereof) OR his words when he is in severe error.
Your contention that it will take more than a generation speaks volumes about the lack of faith you may have about God’s power.
Your ego has obviously distorted your reading comprehension. I said very clearly “we will be VERY lucky if all it takes is one generation.” And then I said at the end that miracles do happen, but that I wouldn’t count on it in our lifetime. NOWHERE, you pittiable little man, do I EVER assert that this will not happen, NOR would I ever deny the power of God to work miracles.
It’s not about what you or I want, but what is in God’s plan.
First intelligent thing out of your mouth.
Infantilism is essentially the act of wanting something (like a child) in OUR TIME, not GOD’S. Whether it takes 1 or 10 generations to “repair”, God will do it…but in His time.
That’s EXACTLY what I was alluding to in my previous post. I said miracles (specifically the restoration of the church) DO happen, but I’m not going to expect it in my lifetime. Will I work for this? You bet your sorry tuckus I will. But even Moses did not live to see His people into the promissed land. So, I am definitely not going to count on this happening while I am alive. If you are, then good for you. Try not to look disappointed when the EM reads your last rights in a clown costume.
To imply violence on “clown massees” or death from vestments is not funny, charitable, nor Christ-like…it’s truly the twisted work of Satan that you explain away has humor.
That is your opinion. To which I say you are far too guilty of the sin of pride to be taken seriously.
I don’t buy it and humbly suggest you seek confession, but that’s up to you.
I would humbly ask you to do the same. Bearing false witness (i.e. testifying that I have a “lack of faith in God’s power”) is indeed a mortal sin.
And yes, Deusdonat, I pray for you.
You do that. And maybe use the Lenten season to work on your pride/wrath/bearing false witness issues as well as praying God grants you a sense of humour, which apparently you so desperately need.
March 2, 2009 at 3:10 pm
Maybe it’s uncharitable, but I can hardly wait for a new Archbishop. I am not in the Archdiocese of Los Angeles, or live anywhere near it, but it is an important diocese.
The Archdiocese of Los Angeles is the largest diocese in the United States. I hope the pope appoints another orthodox Bishop to the position, just as he did with the Archdiocese of New York, the second largest diocese, by appointing Archbishop Dolan.
March 2, 2009 at 3:19 pm
Relevant scripture quote for combox wariors from todays readings (Leviticus 19)
“You shall not bear hatred for your brother in your heart.
Though you may have to reprove him,
do not incur sin because of him.”
March 2, 2009 at 5:30 pm
All hail Theoden, King! I can’t help but liken many of our bishops to Theoden in LOTR and many many a chancery official to Grima Wormtongue. I lived in Los Angeles when Mahoney was called up from Stockton, and at the time he was thought to be “conservative.” Many a year and many things have gone terribly wrong since. But we can certainly pray for the church in southern California and know that God will bring it along, we pray quickly.
March 2, 2009 at 6:02 pm
The Peter principle writ large.
March 2, 2009 at 6:53 pm
I think maybe Fenton and Deusdonat just have a different sensibility about humor. Surely Fenton doesn’t think anyone here really wants the Cardinal and his Cathedral to fall into the San Andreas fault! But different people, families, cultures, have different ideas about what can be joked about, or even talked about.
One side of my family of origin cheerfully spoke about, and joked about, death; the other side considered it unthinkable even to mention the possibility that someone might die. Could it be that we are looking at this kind of difference here?
Susan Peterson
March 2, 2009 at 11:43 pm
I suggest we follow the examples below….
In response to being urged to go soft on the Modernist heretics of his time, Pope St. Pius X replied:
“Kindness is for fools! They want them to be treated with oil, soap, and caresses but they ought to be beaten with fists! In a duel you don’t count or measure the blows, you strike as you can! War is not made with charity, it is a struggle, a duel. If Our Lord were not terrible he would not have given an example in this too. See how he treated the Pharisees, the sowers of error, the wolves in sheep’s clothing, the traitors in the temple. He scourged them with whips!”
St. Francis of Sales taught:
“The declared enemies of God and His Church, heretics and schismatics, must be criticized as much as possible, as long as truth is not denied. It is a work of charity to shout: ‘Here is the wolf!’ when it enters the flock or anywhere else” Introduction to the Devout Life, part III, chap. 29.