The test is not in the easy cases but the hard ones.
Are you pro-life? Are you against torture? Do you believe completely in what the Church teaches or are you one of those ‘except’ people? This is the question I have been asking my self and I would venture that some of the commenters here might do well to do the same.
When one runs a website such as this you see many different types of ‘Catholics.’ You get the fire breathers who question parenting fitness because you let your 17 yr old go to see Harry Potter or that write very serious private emails because it is not ‘Catholic’ to make a joke about the Pope.
You also see another type, the ‘except’ Catholics. We saw this in the debate over torture. Now let me be clear. I am not referring to those who genuinely and honestly debated with themselves over where the line could be properly drawn or if there were ever mitigating circumstances. I don’t think think, as some might argue, that you stray from the faith just for wondering about these issues. That said, there are others who while ostensibly maintaining their Catholic bona fides, say ‘Who cares, they are our enemies -a bunch or terrorists and murderers. I am not shedding one tear for these thugs if they get tortured? They had it coming.’ This is an ‘except’ Catholic. Catholic, with exceptions.
I write this today because I have had to delete too many comments over this Tiller murder. Ostensibly pro life Catholics who have cluttered up the combox with quotes about “Who cares? He had it coming! He just got what he has been dishing out all these years. He was a monster who got what he deserved!”
Long time readers here know that we very very rarely delete comments on CMR. I will, however, delete any comments in which I even get a whiff of this sentiment. I will not have this blogs comments be used by the enemies of life to paint a picture of intolerance. No. Not here. No exceptions.
As for the notion that he got what he deserved? I certainly don’t want what I deserve, do you? With my sins I deserve to be permanently excluded from the company of the God who created me. This is what I deserve. I pray that through the merits of the suffering of Jesus that God overlooks my transgressions so that I do NOT get what I deserve. Remember, if you make exceptions about the faith here on Earth so that folks like Tiller get what they deserve, I fear you may lose the ability to ask for your own exception. I am not willing to take that risk. Are you?
June 1, 2009 at 6:59 pm
Intollerence to what? To the bloggers own opinions? My way or the highway? You don’t speak for Catholicism. Just because someone chooses to not pray for a mass murderer (or any criminal who devoted his/her life to crime) does not make them any less Catholic. Shame on YOU for trying to become “virtual Pope”.
If you want to shed crocodile tears for the pro-abortion audience in the hopes it will “win hearts and minds” then you just go right ahead. Meanwhile, the rest of us CATHOLICS who disagree with you can nodd our heads and appreciate that sometimes you actually do reap what you sew in life.
June 1, 2009 at 7:05 pm
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June 1, 2009 at 7:06 pm
This post is solidifying the awesomeness of CMR for me.
June 1, 2009 at 7:15 pm
Um…we ALL get what we deserve in the end. That is Catholicism 101. God is our judge with NO exception. Wishing or hoping to be an exception is fruitless.
June 1, 2009 at 7:39 pm
Anonymous @ 1:59
The man speaks for his own blog.
You have a problem with it, you can get your own.
June 1, 2009 at 7:39 pm
This post just seems very self-righteous to me, which is a bit ironic.
June 1, 2009 at 7:47 pm
Amen, Katie.
Anonymous @ 2:39PM (aka Patrick) if you claim to speak for Catholics, don’t be surprised when “real” Catholics correct you.
June 1, 2009 at 7:48 pm
Now I know I love CMR! It can never be “self-righteous”–and yes, Katie, that would in deed be ironic!– to hope that God’s mercy extends even to the most monstrous of men. As CMR has said so eloquently, when we begin to refuse to hope in the divine mercy for any single person, we begin to lose the ability to hope for it ourselves. That was Ivan’s whole problem in Dostoyevsky’s “Grand Inquisitor.”
June 1, 2009 at 7:53 pm
Anonymous @ 1:59 PM wrote, in reply to Patrick:
You don’t speak for Catholicism. Just because someone chooses to not pray for a mass murderer (or any criminal who devoted his/her life to crime) does not make them any less Catholic.Forgive me, but–at least on this particular point–you have no idea what you’re talking about.
“But I say to you, Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you: and pray for them that persecute and calumniate you[…]” (Matthew 5:44)
“I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men: For kings, and for all that are in high station: that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life in all piety and chastity. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:1-4).”
Look: I don’t want to antagonize you or insult you; but you’re seriously on the wrong side of this one. First, the idea that any man–no matter how foul–is unworthy of our prayer is sheer insanity; as Patrick said, all of us are deserving of hell, and the same Divine Mercy Who offers Himself to us is the same Who offers Himself to Tiller, who indeed has innocent blood on his hands. God forbid that his soul be lost; justice will never demand that anyone *hope* for the damnation of anyone, including him. At least, not so long as we dare to call God our Father.
Keep this in mind: the Devil is our true enemy (cf. Ephesians 6), and Tiller was a prisoner of war who just died. We can never win this war by using the Devil’s weapons; they will always turn on us, in the end.
June 1, 2009 at 7:56 pm
Thank you for noting that some of us abhor torture, but disagree on some of the things called torture. (And no, I don’t want to get into that fight again.)
A phrase comes to mind a lot when I watch some shows– “I don’t like the guy. I disagree with him. In fact, I think he’s doing a grave evil. That doesn’t mean I want him dead.”
Seems like it would apply here, too.
June 1, 2009 at 8:00 pm
I just have an honest question about this issue, please go easy on me. What if an ordinary German citizen had managed to murder Hitler? It would certainly have been against German law to do so. Hitler is made in God’s image like the rest of us, and the killer wouldn’t have been without sin himself. And there were of course other Nazi’s waiting to take Hitlers place. It is taking a human life, (but obviously not an innocent human). Would it be justified or would we tell the killer that he did wrong? Please don’t delete this as I really want to know how people feel.
June 1, 2009 at 8:04 pm
YF- metaphor already brought up and answered elsewhere.
Tiller is more like a random officer than Hitler himself– not a leader, but an actor.
The Nazi movement wouldn’t have been stopped, it would’ve used the dead man as a martyr. (besides the simple wrongness of murdering someone)
If the Nazis were able to pin the killing on an Undesirable, then it would give them even more ammunition to support their horrific actions.
June 1, 2009 at 8:24 pm
I am reminded of St. Peter in the Garden when he stuck the soldier’s ear. It was not his place to do so and was admonished for it, and then Christ healed his captor. The crucifixtion was Deicide, the ultimate evil. Yet God’s plan which is far above ours turned it into the greatest good. This is why I will follow the Church’s teaching on this and hold that War and Death Penalty are instruments that the State has access to, not the individual.
The problem is Tiller and his ilk are not the enemy, I will not give them that much credit. Something this foul and terrible can only be demonic. The abortionists and their supporters are in the Enemy’s snares. They are all decieved. He thought he was doing good while he was commiting atrocities. Fr Pavone, Fr Groschel, and Fr Euteneuer all concur that it is the work of the devil.
Tiller was made in the image and likeness of God. He is our brother and neighbor no matter how vile his actions. Cardinal Newman (I think) said that the smallest venial sin rocks the very pillars of the Creation. CMR is right, none of us want we deserve. We pray this at mass every day.
Ultimately Tiller spread death and profited from it. He sowed the idea that children could be killed for some false good. Now he reaped the evil he sowed, an other evil was perportrated on him. What scares me is that scripture says sow a breeze, reap a whirlwind. What will we reap after so many innocent lives are ended violently.
June 1, 2009 at 8:30 pm
anonymous @ 2:39 was me…
I agree that this is a great post, and says exactly what needs to be said. Until yesterday, Tiller was a murderer. Yesterday, he became a victim. The thing we don’t known is whether he really, despite how obviously wrong it seems to us, believed he was doing the right thing. I tend to think maybe he did, considering he faced death threats prior to this. Pray for him, and for the nutcase who shot him.
S. Murphy
June 1, 2009 at 8:53 pm
No,I mean self-righteous in presuming to know who’s a “real” Catholic and who isn’t. It’s getting old.
I don’t “hope” that God’s mercy extends to all, I KNOW that it does. That doesn’t mean I need to be crying myself to sleep over the death of George Tiller. I don’t condone his murder in least, but I also won’t lie, especially to GOD, and pretend that I’m broken up about it.
June 1, 2009 at 9:00 pm
One of the nifty things about Catholicism is that there are some things which are clearly outside of the Church, by definition. A lot of folks don't like this, especially those who dislike organized religion.
If you want to argue with the things he listed as being against the Church, then do, but don't get angry that anyone dares to say there is a standard. You want to argue against folks who say no-one can play D&D and be a good Catholic? I'll be right there with you. You want to argue that someone can promote willful violation of binding teachings and still be a real catholic, we part ways.
We've got Binding Teachings. We've got non-binding teachings. We've got reams of philosophy, with thousands of shades of meaning possible. There is such a thing as someone who calls themselves Catholic and isn’t; it may not be as common as some folks allege, but it still exists.
June 1, 2009 at 9:28 pm
This was not a retired abortionist, but an imminent threat (had he survived for the workweek).
This is a huge distinction.
Pro-aborts mockingly point out that abortion is fast becoming “murder-lite” among the pro-life crowd, as demonstrated by our unwillingness to acknowledge the nature of the crime and the absolute futility of political action!
June 1, 2009 at 9:59 pm
Paladin – not only are you wrong on this, but you are in DIRE need of catechesis. If you bothered to read the biblical quotes you added, they are both referring to praying for enemies WHILE THEY ARE ALIVE. Why? To pray for their CONVERSION. The quotes are very clear for anyone who reads them (well, almost any apparently).
In the case of Tillman, he is now dead, cold in the grave. If he died unrepentant, practicing in his willful persistent mortal sin did indeed condemn himself to hell, then NOTHING, Zilch, NADA will help him; not your prayers or anything else. Now, if you believe that a heretic abortionist practicing willful mortal sin until the day of his death is actually in purgatory, then you can pray for his soul. Or better yet, pray for his VICTIMS, his family and other living abortionists (i.e. for their conversions) But don’t you DARE try to distort church teaching. As Foxfier Sailorette mentioned above, the teaching is eternal and clear on this subject. Once again, THERE IS NO REASON FOR ANY CATHOLIC TO PRAY FOR THIS MAN NOW THAT HE IS IN DEAD IF HE IS IN HELL.
June 1, 2009 at 10:07 pm
This blog is very Drehery today…
I hope it’s not the beginning of the end – I like coming here.
June 1, 2009 at 10:33 pm
“Once again, THERE IS NO REASON FOR ANY CATHOLIC TO PRAY FOR THIS MAN NOW THAT HE IS IN DEAD IF HE IS IN HELL.”If you’re gonna yell, at least know what the “hell” you’re talking about. We can never be certain that even Judas Iscariot did not cry out “My Jesus, mercy!” in his final breath. So it is with this guy, however heinous his actions may have been.
And they were heinous. (We’re still agreed on that much, right?)