very good commentary- what disturbs me the most- a lack of intellectual curiosity- WHY does the Church teach certain things? For example- yesterday my husband taught a DEACON that the Immaculate Conception is NOT the virgin birth…
This is percisely the problem with the ambiguity of VII on religious liberty. The Holy Father would do well to clarify that people do NOT have a right to adhere to error. They only have the freedom to. Even this priest, as good as he is most times, gives a muddled reason based on guilt….'oh she's still our mother'. No! We will be separated from the promises of Christ! Period. Say the Truth. Stop dancing around it because God has the power to save whom He wishes. He would not have set up a Church if it was meaningless.
There is a reason the Catholic Church is often referred to as an ark. If by your faith you can walk on water… then you should have no fear of drowning. Thats how difficult it would be outside the Church. That is how much hope you could have to be saved outside the Church.
"The spouse of Christ cannot be adulterous; she is uncorrupted and pure. She knows one home; she guards with chaste modesty the sanctity of one couch. She keeps us for God. She appoints the sons whom she has born for the kingdom. Whoever is separated from the Church and is joined to an adulteress, is separated from the promises of the Church; nor can he who forsakes the Church of Christ attain to the rewards of Christ. He is a stranger; he is profane; he is an enemy. He can no longer have God for his Father, who has not the Church for his mother. If any one could escape who was outside the ark of Noah, then he also may escape who shall be outside of the Church. The Lord warns, saying, 'He who is not with me is against me, and he who gathereth not with me scattereth.'" Cyprian, Unity of the Church, 6 (A.D. 256).
OMG this priest is soooo desperate! If people want to leave the church they will. This priest isn't going to stop them. Most educated people don't even listen to priests anymore, after all the molestation and oppression of women. But the Catholic Church needs it revenue stream…so the priest is correct YOU CAN"T LEAVE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.
OMG means Obama Must Go! Impeach when Congress convenes this January. But I digress.
If people leave Islam, they get murdered for apostasy. The fact that people can leave the Catholic Church without getting killed is another sign that this Church is truly God's people.
Good piece. On grace outside the RCC, I tend to think of it this way.
If the RCC is what she says she is (God's ordained vehicle for transmitting His grace to us), then, in a sense, God is obligated to provide His grace to us through the Church. He made a promise to provide grace through His church, and He does not go back on His promises.
On the other hand, God is at liberty to provide grace to people outside the Church, but not obligated to do so. That is not how He set it up, so He is not obligated to provide it any other way. In other words, the RCC is the rule, but God is free to grant exceptions.
Of course we are free to leave the Church, but you take your chances with God granting you an exception.
It goes much deeper than the good Father is willing to admit — leaving the Catholic Church is your VIP ticket to losing your soul.
He is correct — God's grace can be found in other places, and in other faiths. It would be monstrous of God to consign to Hell many good Christians of other denominations for not being Catholic. Fair enough. But for Catholics, we are held to a higher standard. Once having been exposed to the Truth, and to God's Church, we then reject it, well, that my friends is the very definition of mortal sin, and is irreconcilable with Heaven and the eternal beatific vision of God.
"No salvation outside the Catholic Church" is still dogma last time I looked, but over the years I've come to accept an expansive view of that dogma — for example, at the instant of death, God could reveal the fullness of the Catholic faith, and if accepted by the dying, would still be valid, even if the person never set foot in a Catholic church. But the fallen away Catholic will have much to answer for, even if they went on to live good and holy lives as Baptists or Hindus. It still amounts to a rejecting of God's truth.
@ anon 9:54 AM: "That is not how He set it up" For you're information God didn't set of the Church. Some Men "felt like" God told them to set up the God. Thus Man serves himself as usual.
@Rick: ALL people don't get murdered for leaving Islam. You're whacked! God loves EVERYBODY not just Catholics or Christians!!
Through history there has always been dissent on a series of issues as seems an inherent part of mankind toward authority since Adam and Eve. This has led from minor heresy to outright schism. In the past, when people left or where thrown out of the Church, they became Lutherans or whatever else tickled their fancy. What I find interesting is the ongoing dissent from within the Catholic Church including in positions where they impact the faith and belief of Catholics as with the disgrace of outright dissent in most of our Universities and with too many of our bishops. Rather than leave and go to any of the tens of thousands of other churches many of whom agree with their dissenting positions, they cling while there to the Catholic name as they seem to be dedicated to bashing the church or trying to force change against in many cases settled teaching as with women priests. If they do leave, they still want to walk around calling themselves Catholic or in most cases, ex-Catholic with great pride and angst. This leads to the secular world and especially the media using these people as somehow representing the Catholic Church or some form of alternative Catholic Church from the one in Rome. We are losing many through ignorance of what the actual teaching of the Catholic Church is because of lazy or dissenting bishops tied togther with dissenting dioceses staff or with the very poor instruction of the ACTUAL Catholic teaching and the beauty and wonder of the fullness of our faith. Why this is not corrected is the real scandal of the last 50 years and Church leadership will pay a very high price for this failure for the children of God harmed by them.
December 10, 2010 at 3:37 am
This is phenomenal. Thanks for bringing it to our attention
December 10, 2010 at 3:45 am
very very good.
December 10, 2010 at 4:29 am
very good commentary- what disturbs me the most- a lack of intellectual curiosity- WHY does the Church teach certain things? For example- yesterday my husband taught a DEACON that the Immaculate Conception is NOT the virgin birth…
December 10, 2010 at 4:43 am
This is percisely the problem with the ambiguity of VII on religious liberty. The Holy Father would do well to clarify that people do NOT have a right to adhere to error. They only have the freedom to. Even this priest, as good as he is most times, gives a muddled reason based on guilt….'oh she's still our mother'. No! We will be separated from the promises of Christ! Period. Say the Truth. Stop dancing around it because God has the power to save whom He wishes. He would not have set up a Church if it was meaningless.
There is a reason the Catholic Church is often referred to as an ark. If by your faith you can walk on water… then you should have no fear of drowning. Thats how difficult it would be outside the Church. That is how much hope you could have to be saved outside the Church.
"The spouse of Christ cannot be adulterous; she is uncorrupted and pure. She knows one home; she guards with chaste modesty the sanctity of one couch. She keeps us for God. She appoints the sons whom she has born for the kingdom. Whoever is separated from the Church and is joined to an adulteress, is separated from the promises of the Church; nor can he who forsakes the Church of Christ attain to the rewards of Christ. He is a stranger; he is profane; he is an enemy. He can no longer have God for his Father, who has not the Church for his mother. If any one could escape who was outside the ark of Noah, then he also may escape who shall be outside of the Church. The Lord warns, saying, 'He who is not with me is against me, and he who gathereth not with me scattereth.'"
Cyprian, Unity of the Church, 6 (A.D. 256).
December 10, 2010 at 8:19 am
OMG this priest is soooo desperate! If people want to leave the church they will. This priest isn't going to stop them. Most educated people don't even listen to priests anymore, after all the molestation and oppression of women. But the Catholic Church needs it revenue stream…so the priest is correct YOU CAN"T LEAVE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.
December 10, 2010 at 12:01 pm
Thanks Rich. We were all looking to get the teenage girl's perspective on this issue. Like, OMG.
December 10, 2010 at 12:52 pm
Hey Paul! Whaddya got against teenage girls? Rich sounds more like an uneducated Humanities professor. 🙂
December 10, 2010 at 2:06 pm
OMG means Obama Must Go! Impeach when Congress convenes this January. But I digress.
If people leave Islam, they get murdered for apostasy. The fact that people can leave the Catholic Church without getting killed is another sign that this Church is truly God's people.
December 10, 2010 at 2:54 pm
Good piece. On grace outside the RCC, I tend to think of it this way.
If the RCC is what she says she is (God's ordained vehicle for transmitting His grace to us), then, in a sense, God is obligated to provide His grace to us through the Church. He made a promise to provide grace through His church, and He does not go back on His promises.
On the other hand, God is at liberty to provide grace to people outside the Church, but not obligated to do so. That is not how He set it up, so He is not obligated to provide it any other way. In other words, the RCC is the rule, but God is free to grant exceptions.
Of course we are free to leave the Church, but you take your chances with God granting you an exception.
December 10, 2010 at 8:26 pm
It goes much deeper than the good Father is willing to admit — leaving the Catholic Church is your VIP ticket to losing your soul.
He is correct — God's grace can be found in other places, and in other faiths. It would be monstrous of God to consign to Hell many good Christians of other denominations for not being Catholic. Fair enough. But for Catholics, we are held to a higher standard. Once having been exposed to the Truth, and to God's Church, we then reject it, well, that my friends is the very definition of mortal sin, and is irreconcilable with Heaven and the eternal beatific vision of God.
"No salvation outside the Catholic Church" is still dogma last time I looked, but over the years I've come to accept an expansive view of that dogma — for example, at the instant of death, God could reveal the fullness of the Catholic faith, and if accepted by the dying, would still be valid, even if the person never set foot in a Catholic church. But the fallen away Catholic will have much to answer for, even if they went on to live good and holy lives as Baptists or Hindus. It still amounts to a rejecting of God's truth.
December 10, 2010 at 10:08 pm
Dear Mr Zummo:
Brilliant. Delicious. Superb. Thanks for that great comment.
December 11, 2010 at 4:32 am
Why doesn't he just say the Church is where we find salvation? This is what any of the Church Fathers would say.
December 11, 2010 at 1:54 pm
@ anon 9:54 AM: "That is not how He set it up" For you're information God didn't set of the Church. Some Men "felt like" God told them to set up the God. Thus Man serves himself as usual.
@Rick: ALL people don't get murdered for leaving Islam. You're whacked! God loves EVERYBODY not just Catholics or Christians!!
December 15, 2010 at 6:00 pm
Totally unhip=totally unCatholic, I guess.
If one is Catholic, one believes that Jesus Christ, who was doing His Father's Will, established the Church, through the apostles.
Susan Peterson
December 16, 2010 at 5:22 am
Through history there has always been dissent on a series of issues as seems an inherent part of mankind toward authority since Adam and Eve. This has led from minor heresy to outright schism. In the past, when people left or where thrown out of the Church, they became Lutherans or whatever else tickled their fancy. What I find interesting is the ongoing dissent from within the Catholic Church including in positions where they impact the faith and belief of Catholics as with the disgrace of outright dissent in most of our Universities and with too many of our bishops. Rather than leave and go to any of the tens of thousands of other churches many of whom agree with their dissenting positions, they cling while there to the Catholic name as they seem to be dedicated to bashing the church or trying to force change against in many cases settled teaching as with women priests. If they do leave, they still want to walk around calling themselves Catholic or in most cases, ex-Catholic with great pride and angst. This leads to the secular world and especially the media using these people as somehow representing the Catholic Church or some form of alternative Catholic Church from the one in Rome. We are losing many through ignorance of what the actual teaching of the Catholic Church is because of lazy or dissenting bishops tied togther with dissenting dioceses staff or with the very poor instruction of the ACTUAL Catholic teaching and the beauty and wonder of the fullness of our faith. Why this is not corrected is the real scandal of the last 50 years and Church leadership will pay a very high price for this failure for the children of God harmed by them.