Mark Shea has an article on InsideCatholic.com in which he takes on “Those Angry Traditionalists.” In this article Mark portrays “traditionalists”as unchristian wild-eyed conspiracy nuts who in their enthusiasm for the Latin Mass think that clown masses are the rule and that Novus Ordo is akin to a satanic black mass.
Here is the thing, I am a traditionalist (by my own definition) and a rather run of the mill one at that, I guess. However, I am a pretty happy guy I think. Most of the other “traditionalists” I have met hold positions and attitudes similar to mine. They are pretty happy too. In fact, very few of us resemble the caricature crafted by Mr. Shea. While he generously allows that some traditionalists may not fit this entire derisive description, he contends that many do.
But that is often the impression I have gotten from many (though certainly not all) Traditionalists. Like it or not, discourse among a great many Traditionalists is filled with anger and contempt for Catholics who do not share their burning interest in traditional forms of piety.
While there are certainly such extremists out there, about whom Mark gleefully relates some sad second-hand anecdotes, in my opinion they are the exception not the rule. In his piece he relates a second-hand report from one of his readers that apparently Mark surmises to be garden-variety traditionalist conversation.
[A] friend of mine took a breather from his Latin Mass group one year after a post-Mass brunch turned into a boisterous discussion over whether it was morally licit to pray for God to strike down Hillary Clinton. He said he was well into the discussion when he caught a glance at people sitting at other tables, their mouths agape, listening in shock and disgust to what the traditionalist Catholics were talking about. He realized that HEY, we’re not really being a good witness to the faith.
Now, while the story relayed in this little chestnut may really have happened, I can honestly say that while attending any of my crazy traditionalist cabal club meetings, that this topic has never come up. Not even between discussing the Vatican conspiracy to hold back the third secret of Fatima or whether Bugnini was a 32nd or 33rd degree Freemason. (Yes, that is a joke. Traditionalists laugh too!) However, I will stipulate that I have missed an occasional meeting, maybe it came up then. At the meetings I have attended, most seemed … well … nice. Nice and happy.
Like I said, I view myself as a happy traditionalist. I am interested in (and enthusiastic) for the Traditional Latin Mass. I even run another blog entirely dedicated to the subject. But I still frequently attend Novus Ordo masses. And while I have never seen a clown mass either, I have seen puppet masses. Additionally, I have been at masses where the degree of liturgical abuse (right up to ad libbing the Eucharistic prayers) has called into question the validity of that one particular mass. Yet even though I recognize and decry (illicit) abuse when I see it, I have never thought that all Novus Ordo masses are invalid as a result. Even us cro-magnon traditionalists can make such distinctions.
I do think that priests and Bishops should do all they can to conduct the liturgy according to the proper rubrics and that lay people have a right, even a duty, to politely remind them of their obligations in these matters. Mr. Shea thinks this makes me and my cohorts “liturgical fussbudgets” and somehow less Catholic.
That note sums up why I have no interest in becoming a liturgical fussbudget. At the end of the day, my Bible — and the teaching of the Church — insists that the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, faithfulness and self-control, not bitterness about mediocre liturgy and still less blasphemy at valid liturgies approved by Holy Church. People who act and talk like this are going to have to figure out how to be fully Catholic or they are going to disappear. A true Catholic faith evangelizes; like it or not, this is not evangelizing, but shouting “Repel boarders” and then pouring boiling oil on your own archers. Such treatment of brother and sister Catholics is, well, evil and will serve to ensure that Traditionalism (or, at any rate, this kind of Traditionalism) dies out in a generation or so.
Again, as a happy “traditionalist” interested in things liturgical and as someone who knows many other like-minded traditionalists, I take issue with Mark’s characterization. I am not bitter about mediocre liturgy, or anything else for that matter, nor have I succumbed to a “Repel boarders” mentality and as previously stated, I have no issue with valid liturgies including faithfully done Novus Ordo masses. Further, most of the traditionalists I know do not view the liturgy as their property or themselves as “saviors of the liturgy.” They know that the liturgy belongs to God and He will save it if and when He is good and ready.
Further, Mark Shea paints with a very broad brush implying that conspicuously absent in the character of those interested in or devoted to traditional liturgy is “love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, faithfulness and self-control.” This assertion is as unfounded as it is unkind. A few revolting stories do not make the case.
Mark, on his blog, has devoted much time and verbiage to the topic of torture. Do his repeated criticisms of the administration and its defenders on this topic make him a “social” or “moral” teaching “fussbudget?” While I agree with him on this topic, I think it is fair to say that some of his comments (in his many posts on this topic) have not exactly exuded love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, and self-control. I suppose Mark would suggest that this is an important, but broadly misunderstood, teaching of the Church and thus such repeated focus on it is justified and perhaps so is some occasional snark. I don’t disagree. By the same token, I think liturgical issues are very important and the Church’s teaching and instruction on liturgy is widely unknown, misunderstood, or ignored. He has his focus, we have ours. Fussbudgets, neither. And certainly not unchristian.
This is by no means a defense of anyone who acts in any way similar to what Mark Shea describes. Every area of focus within the Christian life and opinion, be it social, moral, theological, or liturgical has its extremists. Those interested in traditional liturgy are certainly not immune. With that said, I think that Mark Shea, in characterizing “traditionalists” as mostly unchristian angry extremists with a perhaps a few exceptions, paints with too broad a brush. Perhaps Mark, in his position as a popular columnist and blogger, attracts more than his fair share of the angry minority. Perhaps. I suppose that this unfortunately it goes with the territory. But that is in no way evidential support for his traditionalist derision.
If Mark Shea happens to read this post, I want him to know that I am not angry. Not at him or anyone else for that matter. I am a happy traditionalist who just happens to disagree with him, my fellow Catholic, on this particular point. I will finish this post in a very “traditionalist” way by quoting St. Augustine, “In essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty, in all things charity.” That goes for all of us. Happily.
August 13, 2008 at 8:00 pm
A Request:
Please do not add any fuel to Mr. Shea’s fire by posting a silly or derisive comment here.
Please be respectful and on point. I will have an itchy trigger finger on this post.
August 13, 2008 at 8:25 pm
It may vary by location… I think some cities may have a few bad apples that stir up trouble. I have definitely heard some crazy stuff at the coffee hour after Mass. In fact, some of it has been so bad that quite a few of my acquaintances just steer clear of the coffee hour. They still attend the Mass, but they don’t stick around to chat, afterwards.
Also, in Glasgow, maybe 25 people show up at the one licit EF Mass every Sunday. The number of people going to the SSPX Mass is closer to 100. I do think a lot of the crazy stuff, the things that get the bad reputation, come from that direction.
August 13, 2008 at 8:47 pm
Patrick,
Right on. Many of the same people attending the EF liturgy on Sunday attend the daily NO mass during the week. They are also the same people in the Altar society and meals on wheels.
I don’t think they would see themselves in Mark’s description either.
August 13, 2008 at 9:16 pm
I’ve never labeled myself as anything other than Catholic. Not big-T or small-t traditionalist, or anything else, although the only time I ever assist at a N.O. Mass is when someone in our family is ill. We are blessed to have the E.F. Mass and our priest is young and very holy.
See, here’s the thing: (whispering) I like the EF better than the NO.
What does that make me? Am I evil? Misguided? Cranky? I don’t think so, but maybe I’d be the last to know….
Pray for me, y’all. (And sing the “Dies Irae” at my Funeral!)
August 13, 2008 at 9:20 pm
Amen, and amen!!
I wish very much that Mr. Shea could spend one Sunday at my parish. Our dear priest offers both forms of the Mass every Sunday. Following the TLM, the fellowship hall is absolutely flooded with children, laughter, conversation and such good will that none of us want to leave. We’re not angry. As a matter of fact, Una Voce is now struggling with discerning direction now that the TLM has been “freed”, so to speak. It seems we all breathe a bit easier now. There isn’t the fear that the ax will fall, that we’ll lose this lovely Mass from antiquity. We certainly don’t spend our time talking about the Novus Ordo. If there are any arguments, they tend more toward beer preferences and cigars vs. pipes.
I do wish that Mr. Shea would not generalize. I’m sure that there are whacked trads who give us all a bad name, just like adherents to clown masses don’t exactly cast a good light on the NO.
A true traditionalist is loyal to the Magisterium. Our Holy Father has declared that there is one Roman Rite with two forms. We are blessed that we may choose and I’m just way too happy about that to be angry!
August 13, 2008 at 9:38 pm
Patrick,
Very well written.
BUT..
…the fact that you had to put in a ‘warning’ to errant bloggers about the degree of charitableness concerning this very hot topic, Mark Shea’s writing, reflects poorly on Mark Shea himself.
Though I enjoy reading most of his postings, many, such as the one you are referring to, seem to be boilerplate articles that seek to provoke anger rather than discussion.
August 13, 2008 at 9:50 pm
In my own personal experience as a traditional catholic, I have had contact with both the type Shea describes and the happy ones that are described in this post.
While I do not wish to be acrimonous, it seems as though the majority of the angry, conspiracy ridden catholics of Shea’s assertion are mainly in SSPX- at least, that is my experience.
On the other hand FSSP and indult mass attendees have on the whole been happy and charitable.
I really dislike speaking in generalizations, and i don’t want to be percieved as having an agenda, but I have had expensive experience with SSPXers (many of my extended family are part of that group), and I almost always come away horrified.
August 13, 2008 at 9:58 pm
Patrick,
I am a Catholic with definite traditionalist sympathies, and I can see your point, but I believe Mr. Shea has a valid point as well (even if he overemphasizes it).
My own dealings with traditionalists, both in person and online, is that they often appear as reactionaries. Much time is spent in complaining about this or that. Whereas I am sympathetic to their complaints, I find it very draining and depressing to be around too much. When talking about the faith, I’d rather spend time talking about the beauty of our Faith, rather dwelling on the ugliness of much of the contemporary practice of it.
Furthermore, one gets a definite overall impression from the various traditionalist Catholic internet sites out there. As always, the internet tends to display the extremes, but nevertheless, the overall impression I get of traditionalists on the internet is that they are primarily “against” things, not “for” things.
Is this fair? Does it fully encompass the nuances of the traditionalist movement? Of course not. But it is the impression, for better or worse, that traditional Catholicism often gives to those not completely in the fold, so to speak.
August 13, 2008 at 10:03 pm
I think the expresion “traditional(ist) catholic” is a tautology. Every catholic (i.e., a person who confesses the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church) is a “traditionalist” by definition, so long as he/she is supposed to believe in Tradition as one of the three pillars of the teaching of the Church.
I am deeply attracted to the extraordinary form of the Mass, and also tend to believe that although John Paul II was such a great Pope, the history of the Church and that of Magisterium started some time before his accession to the throne of Peter.
And still I refuse to portray myself as a “traditionalist” in religious matters. The only “modifiers” I accept for my catholicism are “Apostolic” and “Roman”. Period.
Having said all that I do find amusing to see how so many good people like Mark Shea (in the US and elsewhere- this is becoming a very “catholic” sport in every sense of the word) appoint themselves as “masters of charity” against the “evil traditionalists” without realising that by that very same act they are failing miserably at what they are precisely preaching: christian love.
I just can’t understand why respectfully denouncing liturgical abuse is just not cricket, while bashing the traddie is totally kosher.
August 13, 2008 at 10:09 pm
Francis,
I understand what you are saying, but I would ask you to keep one thing in mind. There are many, many traditionalists who have never even read a blog or internet site never mind posted or commented at one. My experience with real people, not just the ones here on the interweb thingy, aare warm, caring, and thoroughly Catholic.
With that said, the internet and blogs tend to highlight the extremes and the extremists. These, however constitute only a small portion of “traditionalists.”
Tito,
As mentioned, the web sure does shake the nuts out of the tree. I have had people flame me for the most innocuous of posts, so I thought that I would prudently forewarn on this post. I don’t think my warning supports his case, but I am a wild-eyed traditionalist, so what do I know?
August 13, 2008 at 10:27 pm
I have first-hand experience of one of the folks Mr. Shea complains about. He is ironically also the guy who has pictures (some of them his own work) of nearly every discredited or dubious Marian apparition in the Western Hemisphere. Bless his heart, but he’s really goofy.
August 13, 2008 at 11:34 pm
About the forewarning: someone on the Inside Catholic post actually uses the fact that Fr. Zuhlsdorf exhorted people to be charitable and gracious when the motu proprio came out as proof that he “felt it necessary” as “one of the gurus” of the “trad” movement to do so.
Thus, a “trad” saying “be charitable” just proves how uncharitable “trads” really are. It doesn’t make much sense to me.
August 14, 2008 at 12:29 am
I don’t know who you are, but thank you Patrick it needed to be said.
August 14, 2008 at 2:51 am
Thanks, Patrick, for posting this. Mark does a disservice to himself when he writes on this topic. As a commenter noted at my blog today regarding the same article:
“For someone who professes not to care about liturgy, he seems to care an awful lot about the people who do care about liturgy. The way not to care about liturgy is not to write about it. To write about the people who care about a subject that you yourself don’t care about indicates that the issue really is ad hominem, i.e., about persons.”
August 14, 2008 at 3:11 am
I’m a pretty happy Catholic who is rather hurt by Mark Shea’s comments; he’s always seemed quite grounded. But then, I was also surprised when an apparently solid priest blogged similarly weird about hateful stuff about public-school teachers as a class (no pun). So, I dunno. Full moon?
I am a convert in a mission parish made up mostly of converts and blessed with a genuinely holy La Salette missionary priest whose one failing is Daniel Schutte-ist music! But, hey, given Fr. Ron’s holiness and pastoral care, a little sidebar music is okay, eh!
But I do wish I could participate in the liturgy and Latin and try to learn to sing the traditional hymns. The Faith generated a rich culture, and that culture should not have been so casually dumped for Peter, Paul, and Mary music and a clumsily rendered (“All glory and honor is yours” — they IS?)translation.
But I’m happy and blessed!
— Mack
August 14, 2008 at 3:59 am
In spite of Mr. Shea often writing very well on issues when he keeps his feet on the ground, he has a tendency to be his own worst enemy, and both rather boring and boorish. But being a happy traditionalist who attends the NO English Sunday mass at St. John Cantius and the NO daily masses at liberalized suburban parishes, I can deal with the latter as I know that it is Christ’s presence that makes all things whole — even Marty Haugen type ditties and Mark Shea’s routine tirades.
August 14, 2008 at 4:57 am
Reading Scott Hahn’s “A Father Who Keeps His Promises” really opened my eyes to the familial dimension of the Church.
When looking at things through this lens, stuff snaps into focus, and all these sibling showdowns start to make sense.
Truth be told, we are a divinely dysfunctional family, and I would not have it any other way. I love the Church, flaws and all.
August 14, 2008 at 12:03 pm
Mr Shea himself states that “such treatment of brother and sister Catholics is evil.” What he doesn’t seem to realize is that he is also describing his own treatment of fellow Catholics who are attached to the extraordinary form. He himself has poured boiling oil on his own archers with his unfair and divisive comments. He is as guilty as the caricature he has created, and frankly it was irresponsible of him to make such comments. I find it ironic how at times people will throw mud at others and not realize that it sticks to them as well.
August 14, 2008 at 12:15 pm
Francis, just as a side comment on those traditionalists who are reactionary and angry: Being stuck in a ghetto, laughed at, spit at, avoided, derided, and ridiculed for forty years might tend to make a person feel that way.
August 14, 2008 at 2:27 pm
I couldn’t agree more with the post. The liturgy is how the Church prays, whether it is NO or “Gregorian Rite.” As Scripture reminds us, we do not know how to pray except by the Holy Spirit. How can we be sure that we are praying correctly? By being in communion with the Holy Spirit by being in communion with the Holy Roman Catholic Church, which gives us instructions on how to pray, we must follow those instructions. This is not being fussy.
I recognize all valid forms of the mass, which if you actually read Vatican II, includes use of latin and does not include old men gyrating and thrusting their hips as they play the electric guitar at the “life teen mass.”
I enjoy much of what Mr. Shea writes but on the issues on which he feels passionately he is very dismissive and accusatory. I can’t say that I’ve always been charitable with people who I disagree with on such issues either, let’s continue to pray for one another so that we may grow in the unity of Christ.