I don’t understand how atheists adopt much of Christian morality while saying there’s no God. Many still profess to be kind, caring and loving. They aspire to be charitable to the poor and help friends in need.
In fact, they argue that this is evidence that people don’t need God to be good people. I actually had someone say to me a few years ago that “You don’t need to believe in God to be a good Christian.” Huh?
And when asked these good atheists don’t have any argument as to where their morality comes from. I can never seem to get them down to a basis for their definition of good other than they have some notion that it’s agreed upon in some manner. They don’t understand that they’re defining being good mainly by Christian standards. Even in supporting the abomination of abortion they often couch their support of it in terms of love and mercy for the would be mother. They are unwittingly but incorrectly following the morality which stems from Jesus’ teachings. In a chaotic universe, why strive after such things as love and mercy anyway?
Even a famous atheist like Richard Dawkins called himself a “Cultural Christian.”
But doesn’t the matter of whether we were created to love by God or we came about by freak chance have any difference in our morality. I’m telling you now that if I was an atheist I’d be a pretty bad guy.
As Jeff Miller asked the other day concerning the morals of atheists:
Jesus asked “Why do you call me good” trying to get a response of faith, but I might ask the atheist “Why do you want to be called good” in a morally relativist world?
So let’s say for a moment there’s no God. Why on Earth would I adopt the teachings of some lunatic from the Middle East who claimed to be God over 2,000 years ago who ended up being tortured and executed by the state.
And I’m supposed to allow my 21st century life to be based on the mores of a madman who was born 2,000 years ago? It makes no sense at all. Why not randomly pick another 2,000 year old criminal to base your life on? Why not Barabbas? That’s right. Why not be a Barabbian?
It would make just as much sense.
To drill it down to a finer point, if Jesus claimed to be God and was not you’d have to assume he was a raving lunatic. But how do you get from there to yeah he was a lunatic but he advanced the morality on which I base my life as does much of the world?
Seems kind of a jump, doesn’t it?
September 1, 2009 at 7:32 pm
Mouse,
No need to apologize. I'm sorry I assumed you were one of those "holier than thou" people that usually peruse this site.
As far as being agnostic goes, you are not alone. As the late Alan Watts said:
βThe religious idea of God cannot do full duty for the metaphysical infinity.β
I personally think there's much more to life than "all there is". Regarding the life vest scenario, I didn't have much to say about how my life began so I can't really worry about when and how it will end.
September 1, 2009 at 8:42 pm
craig,
Ever been in an i-should-have-died right-there scenario?
I have, so it's hard not to think about it sometimes.
September 2, 2009 at 2:38 am
Mouse,
I have also experienced a near-death scenario. I won't get into the gory details but suffice to say that a gun never looks bigger than when its pointed at your eyeball.
For me, though, I never really thought about the what coulda/woulda/shoulda happened and focused on what actually DID happen.
September 2, 2009 at 10:39 pm
Wow. Not to be flip, but I guess the guy didn't buy into the "we're all in this together" mentality. People like that are truly scary. I was in an SUV that flipped over going sixty. Scariest few seconds of my life. I tend to be kind of introspective, so "not thinking about it" isn't really an option for my overactive imagination. Since it's been a couple days, I forgot where I was going with this discussion. π
September 3, 2009 at 2:48 am
Memoria Press has an excellent article up called "The Tortured Logic of the New Atheism" (http://www.memoriapress.com/articles/Tortured-Logic.html) Highly recommend it.
September 3, 2009 at 2:25 pm
Katie,
Martin Cothran (the author of the article you cited) says that Dawkins' "argument is designed to explain why people ARE good; not why they should be good."
Forgive me if I think that makes Cothran's logic seem tortured, not Dawkins'.
September 3, 2009 at 3:21 pm
Mouse,
Unfortunately, the guy was only concerned with where his next high was coming from.
What I was trying to say about your near-death incident is that it's OK to think about what happened, just focus on the fact that you were lucky enough to survive it and how great that is!
Also, I referenced Alan Watts a few posts back and, after googling him, I see there are some vids of him up on youtube. Even though I haven't seen them (can't watch them at work), I highly recommend them. I've read some of his books and he has great perspective on life, the universe and everything.
I can honestly say this is the best chat I 've ever had on this site. Thanks!
September 3, 2009 at 3:45 pm
Craig,
You're welcome. I kinda lost right now, so it's nice to make a connection with someone.
I think you might have more luck on this site (I don't know what others you frequent) if you didn't come across as abrasive. initially. While they don't get the really hateful trolls very often, it happens enough that people jump to conclusions. On the other typically conserative sites I see, they have some pretty hateful, aggressive trolls who don't actually have a rational thought in their heads and get their highs off the negative energy they generate. You're not like that, as you have a logical, reasoned argument behind what you're saying. It's so hard on the anonymous internet to deduce a person's tone, that I think folks automatically jump to the "troll" conclusion pretty easily. Also, people generally come to this site because they're among people they agree with, so it's jarring to hear a dissident voice.
I'm thinking you might have more luck if you were a little less blunt about your positions initially. Many folks here are ready to engage in a debate, but many are also quick to engage3 in "troll-stomping."
I know I'm not being real coherent, but "honey catches more flies than vinegar."
I know you have the courage of your convictions behind what you believe, but so do the rest of the people here. So, maybe be a little gentler and you'll get a gentler response. π
I've enjoyed our conversation as well.
September 3, 2009 at 3:45 pm
Craig,
You're welcome. I kinda lost right now, so it's nice to make a connection with someone.
I think you might have more luck on this site (I don't know what others you frequent) if you didn't come across as abrasive. initially. While they don't get the really hateful trolls very often, it happens enough that people jump to conclusions. On the other typically conserative sites I see, they have some pretty hateful, aggressive trolls who don't actually have a rational thought in their heads and get their highs off the negative energy they generate. You're not like that, as you have a logical, reasoned argument behind what you're saying. It's so hard on the anonymous internet to deduce a person's tone, that I think folks automatically jump to the "troll" conclusion pretty easily. Also, people generally come to this site because they're among people they agree with, so it's jarring to hear a dissident voice.
I'm thinking you might have more luck if you were a little less blunt about your positions initially. Many folks here are ready to engage in a debate, but many are also quick to engage3 in "troll-stomping."
I know I'm not being real coherent, but "honey catches more flies than vinegar."
I know you have the courage of your convictions behind what you believe, but so do the rest of the people here. So, maybe be a little gentler and you'll get a gentler response. π
I've enjoyed our conversation as well.
September 3, 2009 at 7:04 pm
Very good advice, Mouse!
For someone who says they are lost, you seem sharp enough to find your way home.
It is easier to jump to conclusions online, as I did with you at first. Thanks for not "troll stomping" me!
If you ever do check out Alan Watts, I'd be curious to know what you think.
September 10, 2009 at 2:54 pm
Where are you, Mouse?
I miss having an actual dialogue on this site.