Leave it to a Republican lacking the courage of his convictions (sorry if that is redundant) and to miss an opportunity to have a real debate.
Virginia gubernatorial candidate Bob McDonnell is in hot water over his 1989 thesis in which he “wrote in the thesis that working women and feminists had been ‘detrimental’ to the traditional family and criticized federal tax credits for child care because they made it easier for women to be employed outside the home.(Newsbusters)”
McDonnell says that his views have changed. Maybe they have and maybe they haven’t, but running from your previous views on this topic makes you a sissy. This is not a debate about the capabilities of women, but rather a debate about whether, as a whole, the society is better off for having encouraged women to enter the workforce. That, I think is a legitimate question that in no way denigrates the capabilities of women.
R.S. McCain also derides McDonell for running away from it.
And the problem with that is . . .? Man up, Bob. Own it. If you’re going to run away from a perfectly defensible thesis like that, you don’t have enough testosterone. I got your new slogan:
Look, even if his views have changed why run away from the question? It is a perfectly legitimate one.
We here at CMR will not run away. I think think that it is quite clear that as whole society has been severely damaged by encouraging and ultimately forcing the large majority of women out of the home and into the workforce.
If you disagree with this premise (not some other straw man premise) please let me know why. Not why you think women are just as capable as men and not how some women have contributed individually in some great way. The question up for discussion here is whether society is better off for having encouraged and ultimately forcing the large majority of women out of the home and into the workforce.
I am particularly interested in the opinions of Catholic women on this question. So let’s rush in where fools and Republicans (sorry, redundant again) fear to tread!
P.S. I will be very disappointed if we don’t get at least 30 comments on this post.
September 3, 2009 at 6:16 am
Thanks for catching my point. I not only agree with you, I also agree with me!
The assumption of the WaPo editors — that the views expressed by McDonnell in 1989 would automatically cost him women's votes — has no evidentiary basis. My wife works, but it's because of financial need, not some ideological commitment to the feminist cause. And I suspect more women work for money than work for . . . what, spiritual fulfillment? political equality?
McDonnell in 1989 was correct in saying that, unwittingly, government policy has created incentives that have the effect of undermining the family by forcing women into the workplace. Tax credits for child care are a perfect example.
But McDonnell is evidently being advised by the same kind of clueless GOP hacks who advised George Allen to launch his idiotic "apology tour" as a response to MacacaGate.
BTW, I think you'll get more comments if you don't have them as pop-ups in separate windows.
September 3, 2009 at 7:07 am
Complex question, but I doubt that any politician would get elected with the position of discussing working women as detrimental to traditional families. It might work in a district, but in the state of Virginia, you might as well hang it up as a candidate.
It is unfortunate that a lot of issues cannot be debated properly today.
September 3, 2009 at 8:14 am
Simple really: society is not better off for its obsession with forcing women out of the household into the workforce.(Which it has clearly accomplished)
A man's wife had left him with 3 children 10, 7 and 4. She insisted that she was not fulfilled and needed to work outside the home to feel fulfilled.
He worked a second job to pay for the day care necessary so that she could work. As I stated in the first paragraph, she didn't feel fulfilled. she went to work and found another man.
I met him on a professional basis because I had been diagnosed with cardiomyopathy and needed help filling out Social Security Disability Forms. He told me the story about what had happened because Im an inquisitive sort and told him about my life and I felt it only fair that I knew about his.
I was living alone, and somedays could not get out of bed to work and Doc told me, knock it off and take the benefits you have generously paid into over the years.
So this gentleman came from Social Services (yuk) but seemed like a gentle soul. He was to assist the disabled to fill out their SSD forms in they could not come into the office.
I was not married, had never had any children, had experience with kids a little, but I could recognize a man with a big hole in his heart.
I said look, you need more help than I do (he laughed) and Dr wont let me work, let me help. He looked at me and said, I must be nuts but okay. He said I cant help you with the forms then. I'll fend for myself, how hard can it be, you work for local government. I can do this.
He says before I walk into the house,the kids are a little different. Ok,let's deal with this.
Long story short, I got my SSD that I worked so hard for paying taxes for years to contribute to and agreed to live in and I would pay rent and my expenses. He looked at me with shock and I said hey, I aint the Nanny and your no Mr Sheffield!
Well, eleven years later, Im still alive, without a heart transplant and have raised 3 children. The older two boys are developmentally disabled and the youngest a girl was molested by the mothers boyfriend on one of the few visits the kids had with the "mother".
My kids are smart, Roman Catholic, Latin Mass going (and understanding) super kids. I homeschooled all three as they attended the organized school system that was supposed to help them with Special Ed. My daughter is beautiful, modest and discerning a vocation to the Religious Life after Culinary School. (She really wants to bring something to the Refectory table!)
Point of this rambling story: I am an extremely educated woman and have worked many years in a profession where I could never find time for husband or family. The last eleven years of my life are the happiest and most fulfilling I have ever experienced.
I am now bedridden, (thank God for computers) and these kids whose Mom left them because they were really "too much trouble" are now taking care of me.
I could never adopt them because the state says she has to give up her parental rights and I wouldnt ask any mother to do that. Their father has met a wonderful woman and is getting married next year. God Bless him-I prayed enough novenas to St Joseph!
The state says I am nothing legally to these children and the birth mother hasnt seen them in 8 years or even called (her choice) but according to the state she is Mom.
You know what, my kids say different when they assist me in my wheelchair or get up early to give me my meds. Dad will be moving when he gets married but the kids have asked to live with me to the end.
If I had to do over again, I would have left my job when I was healthy to do this. God granted me the gift of a lifetime: He allowed me to become so sick I could not work and was led to raise someone else's children. How lucky am I? How sorry do I feel for the McDonell's of the world?
Republicans, find your way home-for all my years supporting the Party because Im a ProLife voter, you owe me and millions like me.
Knock it off and do the right thing. Speak the truth…
September 3, 2009 at 11:20 am
I'm really just trying to help get moving on those 30 comments, so forgive my comment having no real value, particularly after Anon, above.
Making mothers work outside the home breaks families into smaller pieces so they're easier to move to divorce court, plain and simple.
I also agree with RSM, above, about new windows, and will go further to say that new windows are from the devil.
September 3, 2009 at 12:56 pm
I agree! And thanks for posting – this is one of those "3rd rail" positions that very few will touch.
I did the working mom thing for 14 years, quit when we were able and have been home for 6 years and have been homeschooling for 3 years. It's not that I didn't like working, but there really wasn't the same fulfillment that there is now. My husband has been able to do more in his job, because we support him as a family instead of me competing with his time (e.g. who stays home for sick days, etc.). We're all more focused on our vocation as a family. I'm so grateful for the opportunity to do life this way. Most women are financially and socially pressured into working for pay. There's nothing "feminine" about feminism. My 4 boys have been taught that women are strong, powerful, capable, and the heart of the home. I pray my daughter will be strong enough to resist the pressure of her generation.
September 3, 2009 at 1:00 pm
I can't believe I've let RSM get ahead of me on this (well, actually I can). Just for the record: changing the cultural norm to women working outside the home has not been good for children. What I mean to say is, daycare is from the devil.
Have you all seen this article which I briefly commented on here? Many women unthinkingly accept leaving their babies as the default option.
September 3, 2009 at 1:13 pm
You know, the 'child care tax credit' isn't really good for most working women either, since it only covers certain kinds of child care.
Wealthy women get it by sending their kids to places with names like like 'Le Petit Ecole' where they learn algebra at the age of two and are all prima ballerinas.
If a poor woman wants to get it, she has to send her kids to the barbed-wire surrounded, unlicensed-charatcer decorated hellhole were kids sit around all day watching TV and beating each other. If she leaves her kids with grandma, no credit.
It's basically a sop to upper middle class women who work to be 'fufilled.' Because, lets face it… most jobs are NOT fufilling–they're drudgework you do because you need the money.
I mean, seriously. How many people, male or female, would ever work again if they could have a good income that just magically appeared? What guy WOULDN'T rather be home taking the kids camping, puttering in the shed, and generally doing what HE wanted to do?
Since I started staying at home with my kids (The second my daughter was born–I HATED work and couldn't wait to get OUT! She was like winning the lottery… 🙂 ), I have gotten to write fiction (and sell it to magazines!), go to the zoo whenever I want, spend time at orchards and blueberry farms and beaches and playgrounds, and spend long afternoons at the library……..
Because, seriously, if I worked instead of staying home with the kiddies, I woild STILL have to do dishes and laundry and clean up vomit and whatnot— I'd just have to do them AFTER dealing with annoying people in an office all day!!!
September 3, 2009 at 1:39 pm
My mom stayed home with me for the first few years of my life and had to take on a job for money reasons. She HATES working and would love to be a housewife, but in order to keep the house she must keep working.
I like working, but I don't have a family. If I did I would definitely prefer to be home with the children and I would especially want to homeschool (my public school experiences were wretched, especially after leaving mom who taught me reading and math before Kindergarten).
I personally think that single women should work (if you don't work – you don't eat) and should be allowed the same opportunities as men (in jobs they can do – so I'm not advocating a waif be made into a construction worker).
Once they decide to have a family though, then they should focus on that. YES you do have to decide between a job and kids, even if you "can keep both", one of them will suffer – as any working mother (if she's honest) will tell you.
September 3, 2009 at 2:36 pm
The fundamental reason for so many of our society's ills is the breakdown of the American family.
The lack of one parent at home with the kids is a breakdown in the American family (Number one: divorce).
If there is no one home to keep an eye on them, kids will find trouble. Maybe it's a playground fight. Often, it's a lot worse.
Most of the women that I know who work a job outside of the home (myself included) do it out of necessity, not out of sense of personal fulfillment.
September 3, 2009 at 2:46 pm
I wrote about this on my blog. Please check it out. Leave a comment if you feel like it. http://www.judiciouschristianparenting.blogspot.com
Please see post titled "Love American Style" dated Aug 7.
P.S. American women don't want to hear about it. Politicians will take it all back, no matter if they believe it "personally" or not. Cowards, the whole lot of 'em.
September 3, 2009 at 2:48 pm
As several people have said, this is a complex issue. I'm 66 and have seen the world both ways and don't think that either works. My mom and my friend's moms spent their time in "garden clubs", "bridge clubs" and did NOT spend more time with the kids than most the working moms I know now. My mom was bored and unhappy until, over my dad's severe disapproval, got a job when the youngest was in High School. I never wanted to be a mom because all the mom's I knew were unhappy.
I, was not able to have children and my husband didn't really want to adopt, so thanks to the "equality in work" laws, I have been able to have fulfilling career.
Forcing women out of the home is bad. The breakdown in the family, I think has been caused more by "the pill" and abortion than the work options given to women.
I know this will be an unpopular answer but thought it should be said. God Bless you all.
September 3, 2009 at 3:12 pm
Lavona, I appreciate your comment. I think that contraceptives, abortion, and mother-working-outside-the home as the default option are all of a piece.
September 3, 2009 at 3:19 pm
I'm another commenter just trying to get to the 30 mark!! I am a RC homeschooling mom. I worked for 7 years and got a masters degree prior to marriage and children. I always knew I would stay home with my kids when they came along. I told my husband that this was my plan on our first date. I toured a day care once just because it was part of the YMCA we were thinking of joining and cried through the whole thing.
We weren't even considering day care! Just the sight of institutional child-rearing made me so incredibly sad! I firmly believe that women's most powerful role is in the home, forming the next generation. God has created us for this, and it is an awe-inspiring position. What trust He has in his daughters!! Of course, I realize some women must work for financial reasons. But those who turn to a career seeking 'fulfillment' are not likely to find it there.
September 3, 2009 at 3:30 pm
Hey, way to jump off into the deep end of the pool!
Years ago I read a piece on the mathematics behind women entering the workforce in droves. It magnifies the effect on married men having to compete with single men for jobs (single men being less encumbered than their married counterparts).
Women in the workforce (I agree single women should work, and by extension single men should be able to manage their home) depress the wages of the rest of us by supply-and-demand.
Gentlemen–I propose that we should make an effort to ensure our wives are fulfilled in their work at home. Support their efforts, be generous of your time and treasure, respect their opinions, treat them as partners.
Society wins if we do.
September 3, 2009 at 3:38 pm
Just an observation, but didn't one of Obama's high-ranking officials write a book detailing his support of mandatory, forced abortions and mass sterilizations – something he hasn't renounced, yet we're criticized for mentioning?
And then this thesis, almost as old as Holdren's writing, incites outrage from the same people who give Holdren's views a pass?
What am I missing here?
September 3, 2009 at 3:48 pm
I like what Family Man said and agree with what many other ladies have said.
Working to find fulfilment for a woman is a lie. Not that I don't find enjoyment or satisfaction in the job I do, but it never leaves me satisfied spiritually. In other words, my work is more a means to an end and not a calling.
I hope to stay at home with our child or work part-time when necessary when the baby arrives. Unfortunately, being an engineer, it makes it difficult for me to job share or work part time- especially during this economic downturn- I'd be the first one to go the next time layoffs come through! So now I'm looking at being an adjuct at a local community college instead:).
If I could do it all again, I would probably have chosen a more family friendly career path- teaching, nursing or other service work which allows for flex hours or half time employment. I'm definitely going to encourage my daughters to consider this when they choose their own way in life!
At the same time, it is still useful to educate our daughters in professions outside the home. What if they're married with young children and their husband dies? This happened to my husband's father and even myself growing up (thankfully I was finishing up college when my dad died- as the youngest, this left my mom with a smaller bag to hold). If the dad dies and leaves the family unprovided for because the mom was not trained in gainful employment out of the home, the children could suffer. Who will put bread on the table?
For the majority, I think women work more out of necessecity than out of a genuine calling when there are young children in the home.
September 3, 2009 at 4:00 pm
My contribution to the 30-comment goal:
I never had any intention of staying home with the kids. As a matter of fact – I never had any intention of having kids. I was liberated, you know.
I won't go into the details of it… But I ended up 'married' to a liberated man who believed in liberated women. Within three months I was the sole financial support of our household. When the children came along they were my responsibility – as this liberated man believed that liberated women were responsible for 'reproductive consequences'. I worked to pay the bills and keep my children in the care of strangers so that my 'husband' could remain a liberated man.
That was a long time ago. Obviously a lot has happened since then… But today I am married – really actually married. My husband adopted the children – and the family has grown significantly since then. I'm now a Catholic, stay-at-home, homeschooling mother to five kids and wife to a working husband. Every now and then when I escape the bondage of household chores – I encounter other people. Often those other people sympathetically describe my lifestyle as archaic and oppressive.
OH the irony.
September 3, 2009 at 4:02 pm
Society is NOT better off forcing women into the workforce.
September 3, 2009 at 4:39 pm
Our mandate as Catholics is to be our children's first teachers. How can we do that when we are too busy working? Can a mom move ahead in the work force when she puts the children first? Probably not. If she doesn't do something for work, she will have her review to worry about. If she doesn't show up for something for her children, there is no review board (except when she dies).
Ultimately, we are responsible for our children. Unless absolutely necessary, I don't think moms should work outside the home. Our first and foremost responsibility is to be there for our children.
I am a stay-at-home, homeschooling mom.
September 3, 2009 at 4:39 pm
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