If I knew I was part a grand cover-up and a conspiracy, I would have dressed nicer. Black. Black would have been a good color for a conspiracy, don’t you think?
Stephen K. Ryan of MinistryValues.com has accused me and a number of others of being in cahoots to keep the world from knowing about Medjugorje. In a recent article at the site, Ryan makes the following startling claims.
But across the “Pond” in the United States there is a different view of Medjugorje and the gate keepers of Catholic opinion seem to work almost in a conspiratorial manner to quell any interest or trust in Mejdugorje. The who’s who of Catholic opinion makers, journalist and bloggers are eerily similar in their skepticism and condemnation. Two things the opinion makers have in common – 1. They have never been to Medjugorje and 2. They are all men.
Patrick Madrid, Patrick Coffin, Mark Shea, Greg Kandra, Pat & Matthew Archbold, Jim Akin, Kevin Knight at New Advent, and the editors of Catholic Culture and the National Catholic Register.
I speak with some authority on this issue. Perhaps no other reporter of Catholic news in the United States has personally reached out individually via e-mail or phone calls to prominent opinion makers who write about Medjugorje than Ministryvalues.com . What I have found is that they all talk to each other and they all have basically the same reasons for being “against” Medjugorje . They are against Medjugorje because – 1. To them the issue is one of disobedience against the local Bishop who has jurisdiction over Medjugorje and 2. One of the “Seer’s (Ivan) has a nice house and worst of all he married a Massachusetts beauty pageant contestant.
Now Ryan makes a number of outrageous, silly, and just plain stupid accusations in his ridiculous piece. Let me address a few of them.
First, he colors me as a skeptic and as one who has condemned Medjugorje. I challenge Mr. Ryan to find one negative thing that I have said about Medjugorje, just one. He will not be able to do it. To the best of my recollection I have mentioned Medjugorje three times. One was a joke during the 2008 election in which I titled a piece “Palin Visits Medjugorje” which of course was not the Alaska Governor but Michael Palin of Monty Python fame. More on that in a moment. The second time I criticized bad reporting about Medjugorje by Reuters. And the third was in a serious context in which I explained the peril for the Church in ruling on Medjugorje one way or the other.
Now 3 times over five years is not a lot, I grant you. But I have written about it. Further, in none of my articles have I said anything critical or supportive of Medjugorje. I generally refrain from writing about it because there is little to be gained by doing so. I have found that most of the Catholics who read me on a regular basis have made up their minds, either pro or con, and anything I say on the matter is likely to be misconstrued and generate much more heat than light. I could not change anyone’s mind on the matter even if I had the inclination to do so, which I don’t.
What could I possibly add to what has been written and debated about Medjugorje for the last 30 years? Absolutely nothing. So I choose not to write about it. This decision was in part formed from the reaction I got just from posting the joke about Palin and Medjugorje in 2008. I think I got 100 emails just for that. Half accused me of mocking Our Lady by making a joke and the other half accused me of being a Medjugorje promoter for even posting the video. 100 emails just for that and I think I only had about 50 readers then. Like I said, nothing to be gained by giving my opinion on matters I am highly unqualified to judge.
So in all the particulars of that, Mr. Ryan got it wrong. He states that he has personally reached out individually to me and the others. Nope, never happened. He says that we all talk to each other about it. Nope. Never happened. I did speak to Jimmy Akin about the show Fringe once, but that was it. The other reasons he states, the Bishop thing and the beauty queen thing, are equally absurd as I have never said them in my articles or even in a private conversation with anyone. Not once. Never. And then he calls us sexist. Really. Mr. Ryan is either delusional or a liar.
Last but not least, Mr. Ryan emphatically states, since he speaks with some self-proclaimed authority on the matter, that I have never, that none of us have ever been to Medjugorje. How could he possibly know that? Has he filed a freedom of information act request to procure my international travel records? I have been all over the world. How could Mr. Ryan possibly know whether I have ever stopped in Medjugorje to see for myself? Whether or not I have have hiked and prayed on Podbrdo and Križevac. He couldn’t.
I ask Mr. Ryan to consider an apology to all those he has accused with absolutely no basis. I also ask Mr. Ryan to consider whether or not bandying about such obvious falsehoods with no regard to facts or evidence helps or hurts his ‘authority’ in promoting the supposed apparition site to which he is so dedicated?
April 27, 2012 at 5:35 am
Steve – no, you don't know what Our Lady thinks on the subject, because she has never stated anything on it. The church has: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus. To answer your question, it is irrelevant on "how I feel" on certain "messages" from this so-called apparition, because I feel strongly against the ones that contradict the church. Incidentally, you argue the same way Jehova's witnesses do; they pick key bible passages and say, "how do you feel about this?" etc, even though they are completely wrong about the other ones.
As a Catholic woman, I do not care what some Marianologist says if it is in contradiction to church doctrine. And you have proven our point here on the subject. You care more about this apparition than the church, and thus your immortal soul. and this is sad. very sad.
– Margie
April 27, 2012 at 12:21 pm
margie
Medjugore does not contradict Catholic doctrine. The bishop of Mostar does not even say that..
I dont know where you are getting you information.
I get my information directly from a leading worldwide expert who I spoke with.
A man who is asked by the Vatican to investigate apparitions is somebody we can look to as an authority and if we can not then this conversation will not go very far..
The problem with Medjuorje is not doctrine but rather it is about whether or not something supernatural is occurring..By the way Medjugorje is in error from the view point of SSPX or other break away traditionalist Catholic groups which reject Vatican II
I will say it one more time Medjugorje is not in error
April 27, 2012 at 2:37 pm
Dear Ministryvalues.com:
First of all, pardon my uncharitable reference, but Mark Marivalle is a layman and an apparition-chaser. He may have a degree or two but he doesn't officially advise the Vatican on anything. What an absurd statement. You say that his opinion is that all the statements made at Medjugore are consistent with Catholic doctrine? That makes me even more concerned about him than I already was. He sounds and promotes himself as an expert but he makes me uncomfortable.
Aside from that, there are several incorrect statements you've made in your posts directed at Margie. I'll just mention a couple.
1) SSPX does not reject Vatican II. That's just uninformed propoganda you're repeating.
2) You have repeatedly referred to Vatican II as a separate authority from the Catholic Church. Believe this, Vatican II is not the Deposit of Faith. The Catholic Church is, the Magisterium is. Vatican II is simply the most recent council, which DID NOT create any new dogmas or doctrines. I'm guessing you're "interpreting" some documents in the way that fits your needs. Unfortunately, that's the problem with Vatican II documents. But I digress…
As Margie points out, it does sound as if you are relying an awful lot on what speaks to you, how this or that makes you feel. If you don't look to the Church for your truth, you're easily led astray.
April 27, 2012 at 2:51 pm
elisabeth you and I disagree on Dr. Miravalle and SSPX..and I am pretty sure I am not about to change your mind.
like I said I am no theologian .. I really can't help on this..
my point of my article and all this is still the same..
Medjugorje needs to be discerned …The catholic opinion makers I have encountered believe they need to protect the faithful.. I just have a lot more confidence in peoples ability to make up their own minds.
April 27, 2012 at 5:16 pm
Anonymous said…
Excellent work, Agent Archbold. We member of the Brotherhood of Conspiratorial Darkness salute you.
Mark Shea
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
So typical from the self anointed clique back slappers while never acknowledging their personal errors in reporting….esp. the very foundation of authority on the matter in question. Shea had continued to repeat to the public as some kind of point to make against those who tried to correct him and were banned, the mistaken info that in the case of Medj. the local bishop has spoken and that's the current decision. That in itself is purposefully leading the faithful against something that is being studied in an unprecedented protected way by the Vatican. In THIS case, it's NOT the local bishop in authority over the phenomena itself. It's pretty bad to set yourself as some kind of Catholic authority to be looked to for correct info while denigrating persons involved in this cause whom you've never met nor care to meet, but what is worse is knowingly misinforming others in order to keep yourself within your selected little clique of naysayers' approval. Truth should always come first. I think those converts who still have problems with understanding the mystical portions of the Church, and often state that they just don't care about it while still putting forth their ignorant statements continue to look not just ignorant but uncharitable as well in their approach to current seers being examined by far more acceptable and charitable experts of our Church. IOW, the faithful public should take the "advice" from such limited bloggers and don't make them into some kind of "star" cult types. Their personally chosen topics often emphasize against that approach when it comes to clergy….they ought then to apply their own instruction to their readers towards their own little cliques of self righteousness!
April 27, 2012 at 5:22 pm
Ok, I don't have a problem with anyone reserving their opinion on any apparition if it is not approved by the Church. After all, The Church is all we have in these matters. Obedience is key. However, to follow any apparition is not bad as long as discernment is used. I follow both Medjugorje and Garabandal, each of which has not been approved and the local Bishops have not very supportive. While I am careful on anything of this nature, we can't just turn a blind eye. Jesus has been coming to us for 2000 years in this manner to help us in our belief. He knows we are doubting Thomas's to a certain degree. The person he has entursted the most in this endeavor is his Blessed Mother. To not pay attention to apparitions, especailly the approved ones, would be folly. Why would God allow it if there was not an important message to be given. Todays apparitions remind me of the disciples on the road to Emmaus, did not their hearts burn with desire for the Lord. And he revealed himself at the end. In the end, discernment is key. Trust in God and allow him to talk to your heart. In the end he will reveal himself.
April 27, 2012 at 6:00 pm
why all this unfriendly discussion on the authenticity of MEDJUGORJE….neither you nor I have proof of these apparitions……the promised LASTING INDESTRUCTABLE SIGN will be proof enough….or not…..in the meantime let the people go and convert, fast, pray etc..and change the world in the process….TO GOD BE THE GLORY
April 27, 2012 at 6:20 pm
Steve,
First: thank you for the kind words. Second: I appreciate the fact that you approach the alleged apparitions at Medjugorje (and concomitant details) with strong zeal; it obviously means a great deal to you, and you've spent a good deal of time and effort and personal energy into it. I don't want anything I say to detract from (or disparage) that.
That being said… are you aware of the fact that many false Marian apparitions (and other apparitions) have not simply "gone quietly into the night" after their condemnations by their local bishops? Consider the false apparition of Necedah, WI; it's been condemned in the strongest possible terms, and the adherents (after years of warnings) are excommunicated, but the so-called "shrine" still exists, and it still has quite the following… by people whose defenses of the shrine (and of the original so-called "seer", Mary Ann Van Hoof) mirror your own defenses, almost EXACTLY. I do not offer this as a "proof"; rather, I offer it as a word of caution, to show that sincerity and devotion, and even select "good fruits" (many conversions, and very many returns of sinners to the Sacraments and to pious devotions [such as the Holy Rosary] were due to Necedah; did you know that?) do not establish the veracity of any given alleged "apparition". Granted, Necedah (when the details are known–some of which ranged from the ridiculous to the disturbing) was easier to discern than were others; but if those details are not known (or if they are hidden by sympathisers), it can be quite easy to be swept away by the sincere devotion of true-believers… whether those believers are in error, or not. (At least one friend of mine is utterly convinced that the Bishops were simply wrong about Necedah, and that the Pope would overturn the verdict if he knew about it… which presupposes that [against all odds] he *didn't* know!.)
Re: Dr. Mark Miravalle… I'm afraid I have to share Elizabeth's concerns. He's certainly an enthusiast, but his enthusiasm seems to have led him to be rather less critical of "popular Marian devotions" than he might otherwise be; one clear example seems to be his exuberant use of the "Our Lady of All Nations" prayer in which Our Lady is referenced as she "who once was Mary"–but this (ill-advised) phrase was prohibited by Archbishop Angelo Amato of the CDF… and I was left wondering why Dr. Miravalle couldn't have "seen that one coming", so to speak, since the phrase is nonsensical and bizarre. Beyond this, his own defenses of Medjugorje have strayed into outright error (references available on request; I'd have to dig them up from home, and it might take a few daye to get the time to do so). I'd be a bit hesitant to use him as a corroborative source.
As it stands: the seers and "spiritual directors" and on-the-ground producers of materials for Medjugorje would have a great deal more credibility with me if they obeyed their bishop (who forbade the publishing of such materials, and whose publishing is forbidden by canon law (Canon 824ff), and humbly awaited any possible decision of the Holy See (while obeying the decision of their local ordinary).
April 27, 2012 at 6:45 pm
Who is Fr Groeshel ? And what is an 'expert on miracles' ?
Ever urs
Igmoramous, who thanks the goddesses of good fortune she don't live in the new Eden – centre of Creation – the US.
Trish
April 27, 2012 at 7:47 pm
To Paladin
It is important to accept the significance that a Roman Catholic Cardinal and author/editorial editor of the Catholic rule book that sits on every priest's desk in the world has invited seers into his Church. We get nowhere when we look at "other" apparitions that have no ecclesiastical support .. Medjugorje is different – right now – who knows what will happen.
here is the problem
people say Pope JPII "protected" Medjugorje others say "Humbug" BS – "show me the money"
people say Schonborn a friend of the Pope invited seer into his Cathedral.
others say "He supports gay marraige (he does not)they say he is disobedient to the local bishop!
People say Mark Marivalle is esteemed and has had private meeting with Popes and sat on investigation committees
Other say he is a dupe and an apparition chaser
What is the point of all this. No one is going to be convinced.
I see millions of people find something good in Medjugorje.
And with that I encounter a "force" that says "NO!" "Wait!" yet give no basis for their demands – no proof of hoax. If there was fraud Medjugorje would be a distant memory.
Why should I wait? what is there to be afraid of?
To me it comes down to "Do you believe in the supernatural or not" I do.
For those who don't believe deeply that the supernatural is real in today's modern times it seems that they all run to the find their faith in the world of "culture wars" – it is what moves people. (often it is the emotion of hate confused as something else)
let me give an example
Diane K. (she of Te-Deum) asked me on her open combox -now keep in mind between my site – ministryvalues.com with over 100 comments.. tons of comments here, tons on Mr. Shea's site. Ministryvalues.com has had over 8,000 page views in the last two days an enormous discussion/fight has occurred and Diane only question to me. all that mattered to her was:
"What is your position of birth control?"
I gave her a long heartfelt answer. Her response "it is not clear what you said" – no "soup for you" comments closed BAMM!! I couldn't beleive it. g=Go to her site and read it for yourself.
To paraphrase my answer about birth control, not that anybody should care – "It should be between the sinner and the confession box")
Medjugorje is known as the confessional to the world. Medjugorje gets people into the confession box then things begin to take care of themselves.
I refuse to think of my faith in terms of my college aged daughters use of birth control.
Our Lady asks us to seek peace in the heart – peace peace and only peace. Put God in the fist place.. I work on this everyday.
But if that's where Diane K's want's to go with her faith then so be it.
April 27, 2012 at 8:23 pm
Well, now that you've brought up the birth control issue on here as well, I'll ask this: what kept you from saying right out that the Church teaches that artificial birth control is immoral, evil and sinful? And that you fully respect and adhere to the Church's teachings? A person's guilt is between them Christ, or the confessor in persona Christi, sure, but it seems that Church teaching is fairly black and white here.
You're birth control argument is not helping your Medjugorje argument. at. all.
April 27, 2012 at 8:28 pm
by the way.
Regarding the "cabal" controlling the dialog
Greg Kandra – weighed in on his site with an article about my piece – comments closed
Mark Shea – I have been banned on his site (after i think my second comment)
Patrick Coffin stopped in on this site for a minute – Hit and run artist- he is like trying to engage a water spider in a conversation – basically everybody is too stupid or crazy for him. One way street.
I sent the Archbold brothers a long email this morning thanking them for keeping the comments open. I also said I would communicate that indeed the Archbolds and CMR have been fair and balanced with Medjugorje that they have not "condemed it."
I did say they are part of the gate keeper mentality with there position of talking about everything except – but that is certainly there freedom.
New Advent Kevin Knight.. I wish he would show his face but he is a chicken – He is perhaps the #1 reason my article was written . He and Patrick Madrid ambushed me on their blogs/sites by posting an article about me and an article I wrote called "Medjugorje is missing its wizard"
Madrid wrote an article about me and refused to link to my story he was referring to. Then New Advent put Madrid's article on their site. He also refused to link to my article. Conspiratorial? who knows? smear job yes. Unethical absolutely.
stephen ryan
Publisher
ministryvalues.com
April 27, 2012 at 8:59 pm
By the way, are you going to answer my question two comments up? And as far as your "not that anybody should care" comment goes, I think people *should* care about your answer re: birth control. If you can't clearly state your adherence to Church teaching regarding a simple, clear-cut matter like birth control, why should anyone be influenced by what you say regarding more complex issues such as the validity of Medjugorje? It isn't clear "where you're at" so to speak. This doesn't make you a bad person, but it seems that it would raise questions in people's minds about your understanding of these matters, and rightly so.
April 27, 2012 at 9:24 pm
to drina
it seems I am always answering the questions. I hope this is not "gotcha" which is what Diane K was trying to play.
My position on birth control is that it should be between the sinner and the confessional booth. After this crazy couple days I will be spending time with my confessor overtime this weekend. I will again ask for his advice.
The reality is I have a college aged daughter – she knows I go to church now, but I let my wife and her work that out. I am not going to tasor them.
THIS IS FOR ME IMPORTANT:
I have said many times – The church needs longer lines at the confession booth and spending less time talking about the voting booth.
Medjugorje is known as the confessional of the world. People confess at Medjugorje.. Without Medjugorje I don't go to confession – this is the miracle of Medjugorje.
Medjugorje changes hearts first – then behavior follows..
Today there is too much emphasis on changing behavior first. It is like "Stop taking birth control and then you will be a good Catholic" It is all backwards.
Medjuogjre says "Look here – this is the way to My son's heart. This is the way to finding peace in the heart . Put God first in your life. Here is the path". Then from the heart we begin to follow the Catholic faith and understand its richness and beauty. More confession that's my answer. I dont want to demand that my daughter "adhere" (i hate that word) I want her to love the faith and go to confession from the heart.
April 27, 2012 at 9:28 pm
remember
confession delivers us precisely from sin and from satan..
April 27, 2012 at 9:54 pm
what a bunch of loud mouths on both sides of this issue. for pete's sake practice some charity and just shut up. go to confession all of you.
April 27, 2012 at 9:57 pm
By saying that birth control should be between the sinner and the confession booth, do you mean that birth control is possibly OK in certain circumstances to be determined by a person and their confessor or do you mean that it is a sin and ought to be confessed by a person to their confessor? This isn't a "gotcha" and you didn't answer my question. Why not state the teaching of the Church, which IS that artificial birth control is wrong, and that you follow the Church?
By the way, you can say birth control is immoral without condemning all who use it to hell. We can say actions are immoral while still not knowing the state of a person's soul. Ignorance and other factors can mitigate one's guilt.
Your other remarks are unrelated to the birth control question, but obviously fine if they are important to you. How much does the church talk about the voting booth, because I have yet to sit in a church where the priest or deacon giving the homily talks about how one should vote. And you're right about one thing at least – confession lines should be longer.
I don't think your answer to the birth control question has to be about your daughter or at all personal like you're making it.
April 27, 2012 at 10:06 pm
From stumbling onto this site and reading all this commenst I would say that Mr Archibold and several of the other commenters who are opposed or not yet decided on Med have written in extremely nasty and venemous language and tones. Why so vile? Why so attacking? Very unimpressed. No, I'm not a Med supporter or detractor. I'll wait to see what the Vatican says but in teh meantime, my focus is on Our Lord.
April 27, 2012 at 11:56 pm
drina,
I mean to say birth control is a sin and should be confessed.
by the way last election the sunday before election my pastor said during the homily basically it was a sin to vote deomcratic. he was taken to task outside the steps ..not by me.
April 28, 2012 at 4:43 am
Not only should contraception be confessed, we should be against it publicly and we should not be cooperators in providing contraception; in our time public defense of our religious freedom including through politics is required. We are not just Catholic in the confessional, but in the whole of our life.
The length of this comment thread (which really calls for popcorn) suggests to me Diane made the right call in closing her comment box!