As long time readers of CMR are aware, we discuss almost every thing on this blog. Almost. There is one topic not to be discussed here, until now. The M-word. Yes, Medjugorje.
Our general policy is that there is not much to be gained by discussing it as most people’s perceptions of the claims are set and dialogue between the two camps tends toward civil war. This coupled with the fact that there is little actual “news” out of Medjugorje these days leads us to the prudent decision to leave this topic alone.
But now, we actually have some news coming out of Medjugorje. Cardinal Christoph Schönborn, Archbishop of Vienna and member of the CDF spent the last five days in Medjugorje. Medjugorje supporters have steadily hinted in advance of the visit that the Cardinal coming was a tacit endorsement of Medjugorje while detractors said that is no such thing since this is merely a “private visit”.
Of course, a private visit in and of itself is no endorsement, tacit or otherwise. However, while in Medjugorje the Cardinal said Mass in the Church and gave a public speech. While careful to note that the status of Medjugorje has not changed (neither approved or disapproved) and that a final decision on the phenomena will not be reached until the alleged apparitions end, it is hard to view some of his comments as anything other than tacit (if personal) approval. Emphases mine.
“I know about Medjugorje for many years, not personally because I have never been here before, but in our Diocese and even farther, I do experience fruits of Medjugorje. I always used to say what Jesus has said in the Gospel: “You will recognise the tree by its fruits.” When I see the fruits of Medjugorje back at home I can only say that the tree is surely good.
Speaking, furthermore, about Medjugorje in the Church, the Cardinal added: “Supreme authority in the Church is the Holy See, the Holy Father and his Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, and that is the highest authority in all of the issues of faith and morality. Supreme authority of the Church gave us clear guidelines, not directly from Holy Father himself, but from Congregation on the Doctrine of the Faith that had clearly confirmed what the bishops from Yugoslavia once said, and that undoubtedly is applicable in Medjugorje. I have always repeated that. Those texts are very much known. There are three elements that are valid still today, and I can place my visit to Medjugorje within those guidelines. In that sense, my visit is not something that is unusual at all. The Holy See, in accordance with the Statement of Bishops from 1991, says the following:
“First: Non constat de supernaturalitatae. [HERE HE DESCRIBES WHAT THAT MEANS – SEE Transcript for complete text]
“Second: no official pilgrimages are to be organised, which means that I can not organise pilgrimage of my diocese to Medjugorje. That is logically related to what was mentioned in the previous point. So, there is no official recognition yet, but in that formulation it is also said that supernaturality is not excluded. The Church has clearly said it is not excluded. It is not confirmed, but it is not excluded.
“Third thing that church doctrine clearly states is also in accordance to the statement of Yugoslavian Bishops, that the faithful journeying to Medjugorje require attention and pastoral care. …
I would advise for patience. The Mother of God is so patient with us that for nearly 29 years here, in a very direct way. She is showing Her vicinity and care for the parish of Medjugorje and numerous pilgrims. We can peacefully wait and have patience! Twenty nine years is a long period of time for us, but not such a long period to our God!”
While not a ringing endorsement, it is arguably a tacit and very surprising one and I am not the only one who thinks so. Bishop Peric, Bishop of the Diocese of Mostar-Duvno, is not happy with the Cardinal. While emphasizing that his visit, in and of itself is no endorsement, he confronts the Cardinal in a direct way for what has transpired and the obvious impression it will leave with many. Bishop Peric, after listing the events and communication that led up to the Cardinal’s visit, says this:
On December 29th, the Cardinal arrived in Medjugorje. He was followed by the media over the next few days. Reports say that he gave a speech in the church of St. James the Apostle, and noting the mercy of God, said: “Who could make these things up? Who could invent this thing? Man? No, this is not a human act.” On December 31st a journalist [blogger] wrote: “While some had expected the cardinal’s visit to Medjugorje to be private, he has instead surprised the town by being very visible. He has spent his time concelebrating Mass at St James Church, climbing Apparition Hill with visionary Marija Lunetti, praying in silence at Adoration, and, perhaps most notably, giving his talk today in the parish church with the Franciscan friars at his side”
5)In all this I have to admit that I personally, as diocesan bishop of the Diocese of Mostar-Duvno, remain surprised. I understand that the Cardinal of the Holy Roman Church enjoys the right to profess and preach the Gospel throughout the Catholic Church. But with regard to public appearances outside their own diocese there also exists a certain etiquette in the Church: the bishop or cardinal who intends to come to another diocese publicly, first informs the local bishop, which is encouraged by the Church and by prudence. This understanding in the church and specific caution should be applied especially in this case.
6)I am surprised because Cardinal Schonborn’s office to the publication of this statement, no one has reported, and assuming that the Cardinal knows the position of the Church, based on the results of the commission’s research that no one can say that these are “supernatural apparitions or private revelations.” His visit to Cenacolo and with Sr. Elvira, who, by the way, as a religious nun with no permission to reside and operate in the territory of this diocese, could be interpreted as supportive. And, not only her, but a growing number of new communities and disobedient associations of the faithful in Medjugorje, which can be read as an encouragement for their ecclesiastical disobedience.
…[Here he lists his complaints about Medjugorje and the local Franciscans and then finishes]…
8)The Cardinal is excited by the many confession s in Medjugorje, where the Father’s mercy is manifested. We believe that the mercy of the heavenly Father, as reflected in Medjugorje is also in each and every parish of his diocese, both before and after the phenomenon of Medjugorje. Just look at the long lines of faithful before the confessional in all the parishes, especially for Christmas, for Easter, for holidays, or for Confirmation. Many say these confessions in Medjugorje are strong evidence that the Lady “appears”. According to this conclusion on the numbers making confessions, Our Lady would appear in all our parishes, not just those three people once a year in Medjugorje and the other three every day, in fact most outside of Medjugorje, and apparently in the cathedral in Vienna! All together now: about 40,000 “apparitions”! Indeed, one gets the impression that some “visionaries” determine where and when the Lady “comes” since the appearance happens when and where they want. Is this not an inadmissible manipulation of Our Lady and the Sacred in general?
As the diocesan bishop with this statement I want to inform the faithful that the visit of Cardinal Christoph Schonborn does not imply any recognition of the authenticity of the “apparitions” related to Medjugorje. I regret that the Cardinal, with his visit, appearance, and statements, brings something new to the present suffering of the local Church which does not contribute to peace and unity so necessary.
This episode is quite remarkable. The Cardinal’s comments and actions in and on Medjugorje are very surprising. While they are certainly nothing approaching official endorsement, they are sure to excite Medjugorje supporters and infuriate Medjugorje detractors. This is so clearly the case that Bishop Peric has publicly called out Cardinal Christoph Schönborn for his words and deeds.
Did the Cardinal really do all this without talking with Bishop Peric? Wow!
We don’t take sides on this blog on Medjugorje, but since they added mud-wrestling to the attraction, we just couldn’t stay away!
Note: Please try not to destroy the furniture here at CMR discussing this one.
January 4, 2010 at 8:27 pm
Faith is to believe what you do not see; the reward of this faith is to see what you believe. ST AUGUSTINE
"All things upon which you set your trust are yours. Do but expect much of God, and He will do much for you. Expect but little, and He will do little." – SAINT BERNARD
January 4, 2010 at 8:31 pm
DEAR PATRICK…I THINK YOU ARE FULL OF DUST….AND I SAY THAT LOVINGLY….
AND WHY DON'T YOU TAKE A STAND ON MEDJUGORJE?…AND WHY DON'T YOU GO THERE?
I PRAY THAT our lady calls you…
January 4, 2010 at 8:41 pm
page 20- AN EXORCIST TELLS HIS TORY..We cannot omit a reflection about the Virgin Mary. If the firstborn creature is the Word become flesh, She who would be the means of the Incarnation must also have been present in the divine thought before every other creature. From this stems Mary's unique relationship with the Holy Trinity. The bible and the teachings of the Fathers say that Christ is 'the firstborn of all creatures' (Col 1:15) Everything was created for Him and in the expectation of Him.
January 4, 2010 at 8:46 pm
The Holy Spirit, with divine freedom, gives his charisms however and to whomever He pleases. These are not given to the glory or benefit of the receiver but as a service to his brothers. Among these charisms is the power to liberate from evil spirits and to heal from illnesses. These gifts can be given to individuals and also to communities. They are not tied to personal holiness but to the free choice of God. Experience tells us, however, that God normally grants these gifts to righteous people of proven humilty who pray frequesntly and live an exemplary Chrisitan life-THIS DOES NOT MEAN ABSENCE OF FAULTS!
January 4, 2010 at 8:49 pm
by the way, the above about the Holy Spirit and His Charisms is from p. 155…AN EXORCIST TELLS HIS STORY, F. Gabriele Amorth
January 4, 2010 at 8:49 pm
"Just to re-iterate, CMR takes no stand on Medjugorje. We reported only the facts of this Episcopal dust-up."
Come on, Patrick. Take a stand. We know you want to… stop ranting to yourself and rant online instead…. 🙂
Well, unless you're about to start going on about beeswax candles and preparing for the upcoming anti-Catholic persecution by stockpiling spam… because once someone starts on the beeswax and spam there's no going back……
Oh, Early Riser, if this is getting dull we COULD do the "Malcom Reynolds versus Jean-Luc Picard" thing……then we could attract a whole new demographic to this site, too!
It would TOTALLY result in some coffee-table crushing action!
(Though I must admit– after watching some of Whedon's commentary, I think less of him. Sartre was the most important thing he ever read? Really?!?!?!)
January 4, 2010 at 8:58 pm
Also, everyone, please remember that when someone criticizes your position on Medagorje, we;re NOT saying you're a bad person or a bad Catholic. We're just questioning this particular apparition, which is NOT essential to Church teaching.
So there's no reason to get upset and start accusing us of hating the Holy Spirit or whatever…. we're not saying that the people who go to Medj. are evil (or at least I'm not)–just that the behavior of the seers with respect to their Bishop is..distubing. This doesn't mean that God didn't speak to YOU at medj. I just doubt BVM is speaking to the seers. But my doubts about their private revelation has nothing to do with the validity of your family's private revelations…..
January 4, 2010 at 9:07 pm
Rick, I almost spit on the computer when I read your comment about breastfeeding.
January 4, 2010 at 9:10 pm
This comment has been removed by the author.
January 4, 2010 at 9:14 pm
Hi Mike. I edited it. I wanted to do so earlier and be less graphic but the option to delete was missing somehow. As soon as it appeared to took it out.
Anyway, there's this piece of clothing, like a scarf, that allows one to breast feed in privacy, FYI.
January 4, 2010 at 9:40 pm
Um… at the risk of stepping in a fresh pile of horse puckey, let me remind the "look at the conversions/preternatural phenomena/excitement around Medjugorje" crowd that a local "shrine" in Necedah, WI, had all of the above… and was solidly condemned by 5 consecutive bishops (with the Holy See supporting their decision).
Let me gently offer an alternate explanation to the supposed "good fruit" from Medjugorje, Necedah, and the like:
People of good faith bring their faith with them, and God rewards and works through that faith. Real conversions can happen even with false apparitions; it's just that the conversions happen DESPITE the alleged "apparition", not because of them (even if the people on-site THINK the "apparition" was responsible). Otherwise, you'll have to explain how "good fruits" can come from unequivocally condemned sites… or would you rather say that the condemned sites are actually "good"? (Some people choose that road.)
Here's a test: given that no private revelation is binding on anyone except the alleged "visionaries", ask the people in question what they'd do if Medjugorje were condemned unequivocally and finally. If they hem and haw, or even state clearly that "they'd stick with the Gospa", then Houston, we have a problem.
Re: the Cardinal's actions: he was free to visit Medjugorje as a private pilgrim. He was *not* free to shoot his mouth off on the subject in a public forum. When he said, "We cannot keep silent", that was blithering nonsense, and any disobedient person could say the very same. There was absolutely no excuse for that at all, and the Cardinal owes the Bishop of Mostar (and the people he scandalized) one heck of an apology.
January 4, 2010 at 9:45 pm
Medjugorgie huh?
gee isn't that the place where the fransicans have been in a state of disobedience from Rome since the time of Paul the sixth?
You know, the Med USA has been mighty silent about the time a mob of Med fans kidnapped Bishop Peric of Monstar, beat him, ripped the pastoral cross from him, and tried to make him retract the ban on pilgramages.
Also the supossed "gospa" has told the "seers" to "read the poem of the god man" which, then, Cardinal Radzinger placed on the BANNED BOOKS list in 1959. it was dicribed by him as a "Badly fictionalized life of Christ…"
my advice to med supporters: dig deeper, this "gospa" isn't what you think.
Joan Heatherington
January 4, 2010 at 9:58 pm
Anyone who posts as many times as that Judith woman, is seriously nutty.
The Charismatic renewal is DEMONIC. look at this video of one of their conferences:
http://WWW.youtube.com/holylaughtetchaos
Some one call Fr. Euteneuer.
January 4, 2010 at 10:14 pm
The real question is this; are those of us who belive that Our Lady is appearing in Medjugorjie, ready to be humbly submissive to the Church, should She decide that these are either demonic or invalid?
January 4, 2010 at 10:23 pm
I am from Ireland, I have been to Medj 3 times.I know loads of people who have been frequently. Most of them do not care whether Our Lady is appearing or not. They simply love the place as a place of pilgrimage.
January 4, 2010 at 10:54 pm
Come on, Patrick, it's never too late to vacuum your soul.
January 4, 2010 at 10:57 pm
"Neeeeeyeah let's see: Mecca, Medina and Medjugorje…"
"Hoh hoh hoh! OK, Mecca, Medina and Medjugorje. What's the question?"
"Name three places where demons inspired cults and which should be rendered uninhabitable through radiation bombardment."
January 4, 2010 at 11:10 pm
@Anon@5:14 Here're 11 hits from the Vatican site about the Charismatic Movement or you can go the Vatican site at http://www.vatican.va and type "
Charismatic Movement" at search window. The results shows the Church's official position on this and it is not what you wrote.
http://gsearch.vatican.va/search?q=%22Charismatic+Movement%22&btnG=Search+on+vatican.va&access=p&entqr=0&output=xml_no_dtd&sort=date:D:L:d1&client=default_frontend&ud=1&y=0&oe=UTF-8&ie=UTF-8&proxystylesheet=default_frontend&x=0
=============
@Paladin: I like your explanation. I too chase apparitions. In my mind, if our Mother took the time to visit, I should be there if I could. I went to Conyers, GA. Despite the fact that it was judged to be not approved, I believe I was blessed. My visit there propelled set me to become a pro-life activist because I felt that our Lady and our Lord are grieved the most by this on-going slaughter.
January 4, 2010 at 11:37 pm
As I stated at Catholic Culture in Phil Lawler's commentary on this story:
Relativism at it's best: "Good fruits" are more important than truth concerning actual events which should always be judged before fruits (Ref: 1978 Criteria for Discernment of Apparitions).
Consequentalism? That too. Deception and disobedience are ok if there are good fruits!
January 4, 2010 at 11:57 pm
@DianeTeDeum: There was no verdict on Conyers when I went. And I think the jury's still out on Medjugorje. But correct me if there's been a final deliberation on this.
What I got from the Vatican site are these and there was no hint of condemnation or rejection about it.
Come ogni anno, molteplici sono stati i pellegrinaggi che hanno accompagnato, come metodo pedagogico, lo sviluppo del Carisma mariano di totale consacrazione al Cuore Immacolato di Maria: Czestochowa, Lourdes, Fatima, Loreto, San Giovanni Rotondo, Colle don Bosco, Assisi, Medjugorje, hanno ritmato le varie tappe dell’anno.
http://www.vatican.va/…/pontifical_councils/cultr/documents/rc_pc_cultr_20021509_doc_iii-2002-p-acc_en.html – 87k – 2004-08-18 – Cached
… l’histoire, les places de choix reviennent pour le catholicisme contemporain en
Europe à Lourdes, La Salette et Fatima, ainsi qu’à Medjugorje, bien que …www.vatican.va/…/migrants/pom2005_97-suppl/rc_pc_migrants_pom97_jackowski-soljan.html – 34k – 2005-09-15 – Cached
Another sign of the resurgence of popular religiosity has been the appearance of new forms of Marian devotion associated with places like Medjugorje. These new forms of Marian devotion are often tied to experiences of private revelation which need to be carefully discerned; but they take their place in a deep stream of Catholic devotion which looks back at least to the visionary experience of Saint Bernadette Soubirous at Lourdes one hundred and fifty years ago. http://www.vatican.va/…/cultr/documents/rc_pc_cultr_doc_20080213_plenary-assembly_contributions.html – 101k – 2008-10-23 – Cached