A four year old child dies, meets great grandfather and miscarried sibling who he didn’t even know about. Pretty cool. I’m always a little hesitant to believe such things while knowing they’re quite possibly true. But I thought I’d pass it along because it’s a pretty amazing story that’s getting around the interwebs.
Hot Air has more on the story.
November 19, 2010 at 2:57 pm
…or met the many siblings which God intended to create but mom and dad prevented through contraception.
November 19, 2010 at 3:00 pm
The comments are interesting.
When he spoke of his miscarried sibling, I did tear up.
November 19, 2010 at 3:37 pm
Tim, I don't think it's possible to meet "should have been" people in Heaven because they were never conceived. If they never had any physical existence, I don't think you could meet them in Heaven.
November 19, 2010 at 3:41 pm
i believe it, all but the "whole world in his hands" and the "sea blue eyes that lit up the heavens". not because i have issue with those comments being correct, but he clearly departed from telling his account of heaven and was recalling what he'd been told for the last three years.
remarkable story, and another chink in the atheist armor.
November 19, 2010 at 4:18 pm
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November 19, 2010 at 4:30 pm
Correct me if I am wrong but Catholic doctrine teaches that God creates through the parents. If they were uncooperative, then the intended creation never materializes. There are no pre-existing souls that go into bodies but only persons comprised of body and soul that get created at the moment of conception.
Otherwise, we run into that ensoulment event that pro-aborts use to mark when a blob turns into a person and justify abortion prior to ensoulment.
November 19, 2010 at 4:30 pm
to Tim H.
No, the child must have a soul to be in heaven. The soul gives life to the human being, as well as conscience, intellect, sovereign personhood. The sign of the soul is life and growth. Without the soul there would be no life, without life, there would be no abortion. It is the soul of man that the devil wants and through abortion the devil is getting too many souls. If all souls in heaven and on earth were placed on the head of a pin all the space would be left over.
November 19, 2010 at 4:35 pm
Rick
Thanks for the thoughtful reply. It is something I have wondered about and have not found an answer.
By "creates" and "intended creation", do we mean physical creation only or also of meta-physical creation of the soul by God? You yourslef use the word "materialize", an indication that we think predominantly of physical, material creation.
My initial thought was based on the understanding (via St. Augustine) that God exists outside of time and in eternity so our concept of "before" and "after" are only relative to physical creation and not to God, who sees all things as present, as now. Given that, is it possible that God has prepared a soul for every human being, in eternity with him, waiting for our physical bodies to be created? He does tell us that he knew us before he formed us in the womb.
I'm not challeinging you but simply asking and thinking out loud. These are some things which I believe inexorably link contraception and abortion into a theoligically, morally and biblically holistic approach to "Pro-life".
-Tim-
November 19, 2010 at 4:38 pm
@Anonymous… the child must have a soul to be in heaven
No argument here. But does the soul need a child to be in heaven? This brings up the question of ressurection of the body after the final judgement. Hmm…???
I guess I've hijacked the thread thouroughly enough.
-Tim-
November 19, 2010 at 5:11 pm
@Tim: Vatican2 diverges from the body vs. soul Platonic paradigm that Augustine & Aquinas uses. "Materializes" may be confusing because it hints to matter vs. form, so a more precise term is created i.e. the person who is both body and soul was non-existent prior to the union of egg & sperm.
Being known by God prior to being conceived may also apply to created persons only.
November 19, 2010 at 5:22 pm
Tim H.
I think the answer you're looking for was covered by St. Thomas Aquinas: Summa Theologica Question 75 article 4.
Man is hylomorphic and is a body soul unity, man cannot be simply a soul. This is why death is such a tragic perversion because it rends our very existence. While after we die we exist as a soul, God will eventually reunite us with our glorified body.
In heaven we might come to understand what God's intent was for us, and how we failed him. But the other children could not be a human person if they never possessed a body.
November 19, 2010 at 6:33 pm
I agree that children never conceived have never existed and could not be in Heaven. I don't know that Tim is entirely off the mark, though– how many babies have died, perhaps unknowingly to the mother, thanks to abortifacient contraceptives?
November 19, 2010 at 6:51 pm
Very true, Margaret!
November 19, 2010 at 7:07 pm
Tim and others,
It is entirely possible to get pregnant when NOT using contraceptives, then miscarry just because chromosones/genes are missing, muted, etc.
We know…we suffered at least four miscarriages without using birth control. We wholeheartedly believe that a spirit exists in the new life at the very moment of conception. At that moment of conception, cell growth RAPIDLY begins, creating what we call "tissue", which is what all human bodies are made of. God has a purpose for every life…it is not difficult to understand. God creates Spirit, Body and Soul and He alone is in control. We should simply allow Him to be the loving, gracious and merciful God that He is, as He cares for those in the beautiful place He has created for His children, called Heaven.
November 19, 2010 at 7:36 pm
So much for limbo.
November 19, 2010 at 7:44 pm
The kid uses such canned phrases to describe his experience, I can't help but think that, unbeknownst to him, it was suggested on some level. Anesthesia frequently produces experiences hard for a child to relate except in terms of his everyday (in this case, quite religious) life.
Other than a very basic knowing that comes to us through philosophical reasoning (e.g. knowing God as First Cause), there is no "knowing" God, accept through faith. This may be a very nice personal revelation, but it cannot be taken as any sort of proof of what heaven is like.
Eyes have not seen and ears have not heard what God has ready for those who love Him – until they get there.
November 19, 2010 at 7:53 pm
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November 19, 2010 at 7:55 pm
@Blackrep: On a related note, a self-taught 12 year old girl paints awesome visions of heaven in this video. She came from an atheistic home so it wasn't suggested subconsciously. Her first encounter with God happened at 4. Video at:
http://divine-ripples.blogspot.com/2010/11/girl-paints-visions-of-heaven.html
November 19, 2010 at 9:31 pm
Oh, puh-leeze! This whole thread is just crying out to be "pharyngulated!"
November 19, 2010 at 9:54 pm
@Tim H. it seems you yourself make the mistake of placing God in time ("God […] waiting for our physical bodies to be created? "). Obviously God doesn't create souls only to be surprised "later on" by our decision to block their incarnation. It seems probable that He doesn't create a soul if he knows the sexual act will not result in conception because of some artficial or natural reason. He simply knows everthing that is going to happen He doesn't have to wait and see, but you knew that already.