As expected, Judge Walker in California has struck down Prop 8 which prohibited gay marriage. Everyone knew this was coming and it will assuredly be appealed.
His reasons are startingly craptastic from what I’m reading.
Exit thought: You know, I’m starting to think that judges don’t really care about what the people want. Crazy, huh?
As this is breaking news, the blogosphere hasn’t really chimed in yet. I’ll add more links as they come in but a few places already have posted about what this means and what it will mean going forward:
Ace of Spades (As always with Ace he’s got great commentary but sometimes uses salty language so if you can’t roll with that stick with the other two.)
August 5, 2010 at 4:29 pm
"Why does it matter what the government believes qualifies as marriage anyway? The church can still choose not to acknowledge any marriage that they want to." the reason it matters is that no, the Church will NOT be allowed to acknowledge marriage as they want to. The extremists are within the church as well as without, and they have a vested interest in destroying what the Church holds dear. We will see legislation and civil litigation that has the express purpose of forcing Catholic institutions to accept the morality of the secular society. In fact, it is already happening. See all the examples of Catholic hospitals and the morning after pill, catholic insurances and contraception, IVF, and other non-acceptable "reproductive" practices. See DC and the ruling regarding an employer paying for same-sex partner insurance in the same manner as a Husband or wife in a heterosexual, sacramental union, regardless of whether the employer is a catholic entity (catholic charities). Thus, the "laws" of the land have ALREADY said that the Catholic church cannot "still choose not to acknowledge any marriage that they want to."
"they [sic] gays are not hurting you by getting married, you are hurting them by voting to not allow them the same rights that we have" As for this comment, yes it does hurt me, and my children. Not in denying my marriage, but in numerous other small ways. It is telling MY children that I am a bigot, it tells me that my votes and opinions are not as worthy as other people's, simply because of my faith beliefs. It says that if I teach my children in the manner I choose, I am either ignorant or a monster. I am so tired of the idea that what we do doesn't effect others. It always does. We live in a society, not in isolation.
August 5, 2010 at 4:29 pm
Thank you for posting an opinion, Anon@ 9:15
1. Catholics DO NOT REJECT gays. This is very important to understand. In fact, the opposite is true. Christ taught us to love one another and he did not say DON'T love homosexuals.
2. The Church teaches that sex outside of marriage is a sin. That goes for heterosexuals and homosexuals.
3. You must be joking if you think that no Catholic has even had a child that was gay. Are you serious? Of course that happens. They don't reject the child but reject that lifestyle. There is an important difference.
4. Your deeper issue with the law is based on several fallacies. First, Catholics are not trying to impose their "rules" on others. Yes, Catholics believe that marriage is sacrament that can only be between a man and a woman. But these "rules" are not just Catholic rules – they are based on Natural Law, and thousands of years of marriage between men and women. (You may want to read up on natural law a bit. It explains a lot.)
5. Gay "marriage" is actually VERY harmful. Not just to the people in it, but to the society. For one thing it is harmful to marriage as it attacks the institution (and Sacrament) of marriage which has always been between a man and a woman – and tries to make it something else.
Think: Even though I may get on an airplane and fly, that doesn't make me a bird…
Marriage is a special thing, it is not about two people who are "in love". Or friends who hang out and engage in sex. It never has been. Marriage is a reflection of God himself and it includes a procreative aspect that is impossible with two people of the same sex.
There is much more to explain here, but you may actually be comforted rather than angered to discuss this with a good Catholic priest or to simply read more about what the Church really teaches and why.
Lastly, homosexuals already have the same rights as anyone else in this country. In fact, in some ways they have more rights. Granting them a new special right that attacks and destroys the eons old defenition of marriage is just wrong.
To answer your question: "Why does it matter what the government believes qualifies as marriage anyway? The church can still choose not to acknowledge any marriage that they want to."
Answer: Catholic Americans are AMERICANS. We The People have a right to oppose or support what we want. The government is there in service of us. Not the other way around. So while that's great that the Church won't perform a gay "marriage" it doesn't mean that we think it's OK that OUR government would play a role in actively destroying the institution of marriage. That is wrong for EVERYONE. Not just Catholics.
Lastly: Being against homosexual "marriage" does NOT mean being against GAY PEOPLE. Being against homosexual "marriage" is simply being FOR MARRIAGE.
August 5, 2010 at 4:30 pm
"Who cares if people are gay, they're not hurting anyone?" This line of thinking is the reason we are in the world we are today. Other people's sins DO hurt us. The more and more other people commit horrible sins (both sexual and not), the more control the Enemy has over this world, which affects ALL of us.
There are so many reasons why homosexuality is wrong for the human race, and so much evidence that same sex attraction leads to sexual deviancy. The allure of homosexuality is rooted in the "forbidden." This thrill of commiting a forbidden act only lasts so long before it atrophies the natural sense of sexual pleasure. This is why so many homosexuals end up turning to promiscuity and need to experience progressively more extreme sexual stimulation. Movies like "L.A. Zombie" are a perfect example of how these deviancies are going beyond the extreme (to the point that it's starting to flood the mainstream media).
"But my friend is a homosexual, and I know he'd never do some of those disgusting things. He loves his partner, it's all out of love!!" Do you REALLY know what goes on behind closed doors? Do you REALLY know how many partners your friend/relative has had in the last six months? Are they being completely truthful to you?
I don't hate gay people; I have known gay people and even have a friend that I know is gay but has not yet fessed up to me about it. But I refuse to believe that being gay is a natural part of God's design for mankind. Any action that so easily draws humans to sinful behavior simply cannot be of God.
August 5, 2010 at 7:03 pm
So a real important question is: "What do the people of California do now?"
1. They found the institution of marriage redefined by appointed bureaucrats.
2. They passed a law solidifying the definition.
3. An unelected judge claimed their law was unconstitutional.
4. They changed the state constitution to reflect the will of the people.
5. An unelected, homosexual federal judge, declared that their %^#$ing CONSTITUTION IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL!!!
I guess secession of the only option for them now.
This just ticks me off.
August 5, 2010 at 8:31 pm
Reply to David August 5, 2010 7:01 AM
"@Gerry. There was a time when there wasn't an Amendment to free the slaves and give women the right to vote…. but after numerous battles in the courts and legislative branch of government the Amendments were passed."
The U.S. Amendments were passed by the voters (in at least 2/3 of States). The Amendments' passage had nothing to do with the "the courts and legislative branch of government". Before the Amendments (women votes/no slavery), all States legitimately had the right to have their own laws under the 10th Amendment; that's why the U.S. Amendments were necessary.
If there's a U.S. Amendment to define marriage as only between one man and one woman, that would be binding on all States. Right now, under the 10th Amendment (U.S.), States should have a right to determine how to define marriage (although some State SC's disagree with me, including CA as it stands).
"And Kennedy will soon be off the court. Really who cares what he has to say?"
The Kennedy in the quote above was JFK, not Justice Kennedy. Many people currently care what JFK said many years ago about sep. of church and state.
Gerry
August 5, 2010 at 10:51 pm
The Constitution is starting to look more like Pandora's box.
Or Swiss cheese. Take your pick.
August 5, 2010 at 11:06 pm
It is part of a judge's job description not to give a damn about what "the people" want. It is his job to apply the law dispassionately to everyone who appears before the bench.
Yes and no – it is also the job of the judge to uphold and correctly apply the laws passed by the people and the people's elected representatives, whether it is in the form of legislation, referenda, or a constitution – in a sense, he has to give a damn about what "the people" want.
[The kids today] are willing to question
And reason. It goes something like this:
1. The Church says I can't do X;
2. I want to do X;
3. Therefore the Church is wrong.
Fortunately, most of them grow up and out of this nonsense.
August 6, 2010 at 2:35 am
"Many people currently care what JFK said many years ago about sep. of church and state."
The first Catholic President that had hundreds of mistresses?
"Fortunately, most of them grow up and out of this nonsense."
I agree the dumb ones do. They have nothing else going for them in their lives.
August 6, 2010 at 2:11 pm
OK this is getting to be ridiculous. That post above was from "Bizarro Jimbo" AKA "David" I assume, since he is responding to the answer from Anon: 7:01 re: David's original post – also perhaps this is the old "Brain"? I don't know. Anyway, it is not from me – the "regular" Jimbo. Good grief. How annoying. Dude, get a life, really. Why don't you just come up with a name and stick to it? Why so much fear? After all this is still anonymous and no one here is going to attack you – I don't think.
If you really have opinions that are strongly held you should not have fear of voicing them. Perhaps you are not willing to engage in debate or in discussion because you are afraid you may be "converted" or learn that Catholic teaching is not what you think it is? Much easier, then, to take pot shots and vent some of your anger at Catholics by sneaking around in the dark under the cover of silly deceptions while trying to make others look bad.
I can't help but notice that you are pretty well seething with rage. I feel sorry for you. Really, my heart breaks for whatever pain you are in. And I will pray for you as you have clearly been wounded and perhaps you think that it is the fault of the Church? Perhaps you even blame God himself?
May God have mercy on you, lighten your burdens and show you the way.
(You know, If you seek God with a sincere heart, He will NOT turn away from you.)
August 6, 2010 at 2:40 pm
Jimbo – I did not mean that I believed that NO catholic has had a gay child – I am speaking specifically to you on this board that your views might change if you have a gay child. Both myself and my husband grew up Catholic and we both have a gay sibling. Our parents, Catholics, accept their lifestyles and support gay rights now. Having a gay child does change many people on this topic.
August 6, 2010 at 2:44 pm
and to those stating that homosexuality leads to promiscuity – ummm…I know many straight people who are way too promiscuous and I know gay people in committed relationships. What is your source of research that shows that gay people are more promiscuous than straight? I guess if you count premarital sex as promiscuity you may be right, since gay people aren't allowed to marry. (by the way – how does not allowing gay marriage, therefore decreasing gay promiscuity, help any of this?)
August 6, 2010 at 3:21 pm
Anonomous: at 9:40: "I did not mean that I believed that NO catholic has had a gay child – I am speaking specifically to you on this board that your views might change if you have a gay child."
I understand what you are saying and why you might think so. And in a way, you may be right. Some people who are faced with such a challenge – and it is a challenge – to their faith, will take the easier road and will choose to support a lifestyle which is inherently evil.
But Jesus calls us to take the difficult road when he calls us to follow him. He calls us to leave our families for Him, "to cut off our foot", or "pluck out our eye" if it causes us to sin. He doesn't say follow me, until it gets REALLY tough then (as Larry D. put it) "put DOWN" your cross and follow me. Jesus asks us TO DIE TO OURSELVES, not to LIVE for ourselves, our wants our desires.
I believe that many who have same sex attraction may be called to a real sainthood and greatness in a special way as they are being asked to sacrifice much. Just as the same is true of many heterosexual people who will never be married.
You presume much about the "you on this board". How do you know people here do NOT have children, friends, relatives, that are gay? I personally have two very close friends who have gone through (and still are going through) this situation with their children and it is tough on everybody. But I am happy to say that they remain steadfast in their faith and very loving of each other.
The saddest thing to me is that, in taking the easy road, we also suggest that it is without consequence and that it is the ONLY possible way.
Think about it. You must know that same sex unions are NOT the only way for homosexuals to live their lives. Just as heterosexuals do not NEED to live a life of sex outside of marriage either. It is just MUCH for enjoyable and fun to choose the sin – for now and without though of the myriad consequences.
Don't you know of ANY single people who do not engage in sex? Don't you believe that it is possible to live a HAPPY life as a single person who is also celibate?
To think otherwise condemns ALL the "unwanteds" in this world, doesn't it? Gee, that's real nice.
But Jesus, is just not that cruel. God lets us be happy and CALLS to us to be MOST happy IN HIM, not in OURSELVES.
August 6, 2010 at 3:24 pm
again – typo day- sorry – rushing.
August 6, 2010 at 11:40 pm
@ Jimbo. Isn't the easy road just blindly believing what the Church teaches without question. Young people today call old people like you "sheepeople". You sound like the preachers in the 1860's, preaching to their clueless congregation full of KKK members or the preachers in the early '90's teaching that women aren't equal to men. History doesn't repeat its self, but it rhymes.
Have some courage. Don't always take the easy road by following others. Think for yourself. Question. Live life. I feel sorry for you. I really do. Someday I hope you'll wake up and start living your own life. But somehow I doubt. People like you are generally too afraid to truly LIVE life!!
August 13, 2010 at 4:26 am
To any lamebrains that keep using race as an example….
As a black who supported Prop 8….get off of it. White homosexuals need to take it somewhere else and quit trying to hijack civil rights. This isn't about race and you pansies never had to sit in the back of the bus, or get hosed down or your churches bombed. You don't know what struggle is, so get off your righteous, arrogant high horse.
I was born black. I can't change that. You don't have to engage in homosexual behavior. I can't ever say I can't ever engage in being black. Sex is behavior, race isn't.
August 14, 2010 at 3:34 pm
The troubling part about these discussions on gay marriage is that they never turn into a strengthening of straight marriage. Where is the Catholic outrage over divorced and remarried conservative politicians destroying the sanctity of marriage and destroying the American family. Instead we try to elect them President of the United States. Why is that?